Gravel Substrate

I know of many very experienced axolotl keepers who have their axolotl on natural gravel, without any problems with compaction. Natural gravel being approx 3mm or less in size


When owning any animal, it is your responsibility to look after it correctly. You need to provide a safe and healthy environment for them. Researching reliable sources is important. I brought home my first two adult axolotl believing I knew it all. I joined this forum and one other for further support. I read post after post and realised that their aquarium was borderline too small...I was also introduced quickly to the process of cycling their new aquarium. I learnt so much from reading advice here. Years down the line I am still learning. I personally have no problem with keeping axolotl, happy and healthy on small natural gravel.

I will now be removing some posts that lend nothing to this discussion...I have now learnt the definition of 'trolling'... and these posts are the ones being removed. Please keep comments relevant to the discussion .
 
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I think the big thing here is when does sand become gravel. And what often seems to be considered the maximum grain size suitable for axies is right around the border whether it is very coarse sand or very fine gravel. Like the picture qannp posted, some might say it's sand while others say it's gravel. I'd call that very fine gravel and it's ok for axies. But the problem arises when you tell someone new to use gravel in their axie tank. They'll probably go to a pet shop and get the first gravel they see and not consider the actual grain size and shape. Then they end up with gravel that is too large and rough to be passed through an axie. So it's easier and safer to just tell new people to get sand.
 
LSuzuki said:
Also, I ran across this - sand isn't even safe for all axolotls. :happy: Neko to Meoto: Cute and Dumb

It would be very nice if the gravel issue were studied, since it makes sense that not all gravel (or sand) is equal. Some sand is pretty sharp. Some gravel is well-rounded and small. And, at what point does "sand" become "gravel"? If we could provide intelligent guidelines (e.g., avoid gravel with sharp edges and irregular shapes), perhaps the people who currently decide that the anti-gravel crowd is overly-cautious would be more likely to listen to the warnings.

Clearly, the German keepers (who post some awesome pictures of gorgeous axolotls on facebook) are not having problems with their gravel. (Either that, or perhaps this is Darwinism at work and the axolotls that survive to breed are less likely to consume large amount of gravel. ;)) I wish that gravel was sold here, since I don't much like bare bottom tanks, but dislike sand.
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I don't mean to be bitter but I honestly wanted reasonable answers, responses and discussion like these in my seachem/flourish thread. We noobs could use a healthy discussion with pros/cons and facts that can help us resolve questions we have. We may hear that gravel is bad because it causes impaction and never use gravel. Based on the comments here, that could be a blind decision. So the discussion really brings points out that help us make informed decisions. I'd hoped I could make an informed decision about the Flourish brand after a 4 page discussion. But back to the topic at hand. I read someone say that sand causes dehydration.... how so? Does sand absorb water? If it is in terms of clogging, how much more clogging could sand do than several 3 mm rocks? What type of substrate is in the lake in Mexico? What is the most nature-mimicking substrate we can offer? Can someone explain why bare bottom is best. How can it compare to the substrate the axolotl's physically adapted for?
 
qannp said:
Oh no, BabySinclare and tammieaxie please don't generalize. When I wrote about the popcorn, I was just too lazy and tired, and I'm aware that most people here prefer sand. I just didn't want to burn my fingers agreeing with OP. :D

Users like Skudo and Auntiejude (and many others) are always friendly and give the same advice again and again to unexperienced owners while they could easily do their own research.
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I was not referring to ur post when commenting on BabySinclair ', dear. Remember I was bringing the root beer for this party:p
 
keiko said:
But the problem arises when you tell someone new to use gravel in their axie tank. They'll probably go to a pet shop and get the first gravel they see and not consider the actual grain size and shape. Then they end up with gravel that is too large and rough to be passed through an axie. So it's easier and safer to just tell new people to get sand.
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Whenever I'm talking about axolotls and gravel, wether online or irl, I automatically add the size I have in mind. I got used to it years ago to avoid misconceptions. ;)

Now that we're discussing sand and gravel: I was really surprised to find suggestions for playsand as substrate here. I always thought playsand was designed to pack, so the kids' cakes and sandcastles don't collapse. How could it be a good substrate? :confused:
 
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I had a larger grain size aquarium sand initially with my current axolotls but removed it when my wild type began having issues. I did have bare bottom for a little bit but did not like the look of it and I don't think my axolotls could move as easily on it. I now have play sand after reading that other members had used it and so far it has been great. But Doris, that is a good point about the design to build sand castles. I had not thought of that at all. But so far I have not seen any issues. I stir it up during my weekly water changes. I do notice it does compress over time. I could see that this could be a potential hazard if an axolotl consumes enough of it...
 
That's so interesting! Regarding to (depending? according? help…) every german forum ("my" old forum as well), play sand equals instant death for axolotls. But obviously it depends on one's maintaining routine.
 
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qannp said:
That's so interesting! Regarding to (depending? according? help…) every german forum ("my" old forum as well), play sand equals instant death for axolotls. But obviously it depends on one's maintaining routine.
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It would be 'according to' ;)

Keepers on Chinese forums also seem to be very anti sand as a substrate too. I remember seeing pictures of an axolotl necropsy that showed an axolotl whose intestines were engorged with sand. If I get a chance later I will try and find a link to the pictures.
 
The stories of having no problems with gravel, pebbles and sand in an axolotl tank is vast and many.. But I only need to hear one of an axolotl dying from ingesting these substrates to convince me its a health hazard for them.... I wouldn't put my Axolotls in that situation for the sake of Aquascaping... But if I were to choose, I would go for gravel larger than their heads... Its pretty, practical and inedible....
 
The large gravel or river rocks (I am not sure how big of gravel you're talking about here so sorry if this isn't what you meant) bigger than the axies head is anything but practical >.< no offense intended but I did start with large river rocks but they just trap so much gunk and it's impossible to clean without taking every single rock out, which of course would lead to poor water quality, it did look really nice though.
 
I checked out the current Wikipedia article, and someone from the "Gravel Is A Necessary Part of the Axolotl Diet" camp has been at work. Axolotl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There are 3 references given.

The first reference, http://www.umbjournal.org/article/S0301-5629(99)00040-X/abstract does not appear from the abstract to deal with this issue.

The second reference, "A review of gastrolith function with implications for fossil vertebrates and a revised classification" http://www.dinosaurhunter.org/files/app-2007-wings-gastrolith_function_classification.pdf is a very interesting read. The "ballast" discussion starts at the bottom pf page 7. I only skimmed it, (I plan to go back and read more carefully). Unless I missed something, they did not find support for amphibians using gravel as a buoyancy control.

The third reference "Larval Anurans Adjust Buoyancy in Response to Substrate Ingestion" Larval Anurans Adjust Buoyancy in Response to Substrate Ingestion does appear to deal directly with this topic, but I don't have access to the whole article. Anyone have a university account?
 
He thinks he's right just because he had a good experience with gravel. If he came back, we would tell him that just because you had a good experience with gravel, most new or inexperienced owners would make a fatal mistake with gravel, it's the same thing with species mixing
 
qannp said:
Whenever I'm talking about axolotls and gravel, wether online or irl, I automatically add the size I have in mind. I got used to it years ago to avoid misconceptions. ;)
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I tried that too when I was selling my babies earlier this year, but it didn't go too well.
There was one buyer who was very new to axies so I wrote them a super long email about pretty much everything I know about axies - including the substrate and grain size. After that they narrowed their substrate choices down to two and emailed me back to ask which one would be better. One was sand (grain size about 1 mm) and the other one was gravel clearly not suitable for axies (bad size and looked quite sharp) so obviously I told them to go with the sand and again explained why it was better. Still they ended up buying the big and sharp gravel. After they sent me a picture of the axies on the gravel I explained again that the substrate was a serious health risk for them and if they got impacted with it they could die. Only after that they really understood it and changed the substrate. They were actually quite shocked that they put their babies in danger despite the fact that I had explained it to them several times before and guided them to some caresheets where the information was also available to them.
That's why I find it easier to just tell people to buy fine sand rather than talking about grain size and everything. And I hope it's easier for them to remember too while their brain is filled with all the other new info about their new pets. If they were experienced axie keepers - or even something slightly similar - then ofcourse it would be a totally different thing.
 
allied123 said:
The large gravel or river rocks (I am not sure how big of gravel you're talking about here so sorry if this isn't what you meant) bigger than the axies head is anything but practical >.< no offense intended but I did start with large river rocks but they just trap so much gunk and it's impossible to clean without taking every single rock out, which of course would lead to poor water quality, it did look really nice though.
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I actually do have bigger than head size stones in my tank but not covering the entire floor only around the edge's.. They tend to lie on them a lot and yes poop on them... But I vacuum every time I feed them which is twice a day...

Now it sounds like I'm overly concerned and pampering them.. When I first saw them I thought they were the most stupid aquatic pet anyone could have. But then they smiled at me and I was taken by their ugliness in a beautiful way...Damn
 
Gravel is fine until the day that it isn't anymore and your Axolotl is dead. You may not have a problem for 10 years and then suddenly you do. Why take the risk over something so stupid. Just use sand.
 
Coastal Groovin said:
Gravel is fine until the day that it isn't anymore and your Axolotl is dead. You may not have a problem for 10 years and then suddenly you do. Why take the risk over something so stupid. Just use sand.
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Please, define "gravel".
 
Thank you.

I think this thread has reached the point where the answer to every question is "because I told you so".

I'm out. :rolleyes:
 
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