Half Wet, Half Dry (moist) Habitat: Questions.

[Rivethead]

The skinny:
Move my two 40gal turtle tanks to create 1 half-wet half-dry vivarium for a couple different Caudate species: a couple newts, a couple salamanders, and a bottom feeder and snails in the water to help keep it clean (snails will double as food, obviously).

The plan is to join the two tanks by putting them face to face, and a “bridge” between them through the opening where the filter would normally rest, that leads directly from the wet to dry side. Please see the grey-ish object in the center of my crudely drawn MS Paint image below. The space between the tanks will be sealed off.

The aquatic side will have some submerged, hand-sculpted terrain, live plants, substrate, etc.

The dry side will have moist substrate, a small pool, and one of those cascading rock thingies.

It’s going to be an open-top vivarium, so I can’t house anything that climbs sheer surfaces or jumps higher than 10 vertical inches.

My questions:
1) Are there any resins, plasters, or other materials that you know would be safe to sculpt the terrain out of? I know natural clay ceramics are safe, but I am looking to make molds and use artificial materials.
2) Do you think any of the amphibians will have trouble navigating the “bridge” when/if needed (assuming I keep the water end below surface level)?
3) Are there species of bottom feeders you would recommend? Naturally I want something to cohabit with my Caudates.
4) If you feel I am making any glaring errors or mistakes, please feel free to mention it.

I’m open to suggestions on species. I am thinking about blue-spotted and/or red-backed salamanders for the mostly-terrestrial species. In terms of aquatic species, all I know is that I find firebellies to be boring and want something more interesting. Does anyone know of any reputable sellers/breeders in Southern Wisconsin?

 

[SpaceCadetHayde]

It's never ever a good idea to mix species. See this article on species mixing disasters. I had my own tragedy with that when I was 13 and naive to the captive care of caudates. Either choose one species or get two tanks.

After you've chosen a species I'd look at their care sheet. While a half land/half water area is an ideal tank for aesthetic value, it's not for most caudates.

Great Stuff is a popular spray-foam product for vivariums. There's a lot of threads about it in the General Discussion of Vivariums section of the forum.

Regarding bottom feeders, there's no bottom feeding fish that work well with newts. That article I linked above explains it more detail. I have ghost shrimp in a tank with P. waltl and they do eat some of the leftover blackworms/bloodworms. Some species of snails can also help with clean-up.

 

[Molch]

The picture doesn't show - could you maybe re-post it here?

There are a couple of concerns with your plan:

1) all caudates can climb. If you house caudates of any kind, you must have a lid. Open-top won't work, they will escape.
2) species mixing is problematic and generally not a good idea. See here:
Caudata Culture Articles - Species Mixing Disasters

ambitious plans! You could have a very sweet vivarium in just one 40 ga. I can't quite visualize your plan with the joint tanks and bridge - would need to see the pic

Good luck!

edited to add this link, which shows some fine examples of wet/dry vivarium setups for caudates:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/setups2.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/setups4.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/setups5.shtml

 

[Rivethead]

*AUGH*
I hate Imageshack.
OK, photobucket is a bit more friendly to sharing here ya go.
Sorry. Let's try this image.

I understand the predation and territoriality of some species, so I was hoping to keep them to the same size, and from roughly the same region to try to avoid complications.
I'd never toss a Blue Spotted 'mander in with a Tiger or Yellow Spotted.

But what do you think about Blue Spotted with Central Newts?
Same average adult size, one is primarily aquatic while the other terrestrial.

I have never seen a terrestrial salamander climb a sheer surface. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that out of all the ones I have kept it never happened.
To avoid the newts climbing I was looking for a purely aquatic species, but if it's still a concern I will adjust my plans accordingly.

Thanks for the link. Very helpful, if not a bit sad.

This idea is still getting off the ground. I have yet to dig out my tanks from storage, so I have plenty of time to prepare and plan, and thus why I am here asking questions.

 

[Molch]

aquatic species are especially good at climbing. When they've hauled out a bit and are half-dry, their bodies get very sticky, and they can climb up vertical glass surfaces like nothing.

Also, being from the same region and/or the same size doesn't preclude any mixing problems. One thing to consider is that each species has their own skin toxin, which could be detrimental to another species at close quarters such as in a tank.

Of course, you could mix species and all could go well for years, and then one day you could just have a disaster. It's kinda like driving without a seat belt

 

[SpaceCadetHayde]

I don't think anyone is going to give the advice to mix any two species of caudates. Even animals of similar sizes and environments have problems coexisting. I think that link has more than one good example of that.

The tank idea is novel. It might work well for a species that spends a lot of time both in and out of water. I've never kept any species that utilize both at the same time but someone else might be able to point you in the right direction.

As far as a top, it's a must. Even if you've never seen a caudate climb the glass, it's likely it'll happen especially with a new environment.

 

[Bellabelloo]

I agree with the others too.
I like your idea though as a set up. If I had the space I would love to use this for my Triturus marmoratus. Mine spent 5 months in the water for their breeding, and the rest of the year on land. Maybe consider doing a great well planted aquatic set up one side, maybe with a few shrimp for interest, then a good planted land set up the other.

 

[frogman]

That tank is quite impressive. I would also recommend not mixing species. That tank would do very well with Marbled newts. Also Oregon newt would do very in that tank. Mine spend as much time out of water as in it.here was my tank for them.

 

[frogman]

Here are the pictures.

 

[Rivethead]

I appreciate everyone's help and suggestions, but even more so, I appreciate everyone not making me feel like an idiot for what is a bad idea.

Still, allow me to explain just a tad.

I have never kept newts or efts. So I'm just guilty of being ignorant there.
However, as a child and teenager, I had many times successfully kept tigers and yellow spotted salamanders in the same tank. Maybe it was a fluke that I was able to keep them together, as someone else pointed out.

Still, it no longer matters anyhow. I discovered one of my tanks has a cracked bottom when I pulled it out of storage this morning. So my plans are changing.

Still, I'm curious about if anyone thinks any critters would have any trouble navigating the "bridge" if needed (as I may still do this at some point in the future), and if you have any suggestions on bottom feeders that are caudate friendly.

 

[Bellabelloo]

I think they would navigate a bridge. Mine quite happily get out of water onto floating cork, or onto an island...I suspect a bridge would be fine.
I personally like the fact that you are researching your options first and seeking advice. Many of us do it the other way round. I am really looking forward to seeing what you end up doing .

 

[Rivethead]

Thank you, everyone, for the information and suggestions. roud:

I guess at this point the only other thing I could ask is regarding bottom feeding fish and/or custodial animals.
But more importantly, if you have suggestions for a semi-aquatic species in case I do want to create a large half/half vivarium.

If I do couple two tanks, there will be 80 gallons of volume for habitation, so don't be afraid to suggest larger species.

 

[SpaceCadetHayde]

There are a few problems with bottom feeder fish and caudates together; temperature issues, stress issues, and space issues. Most fish on the market are for tropical aquariums, which doesn't work well into the rather cool water temps caudates are used to. The fish also tend to stress caudates out.

I have ghost shrimp in my p. waltl tank that help clean up uneaten bloodworms and blackworms. Species of aquatic copepods and snails will help with decaying plant material and algae.

If you're looking for fish for another item of interest in the tank, white cloud minnows are the only ones I've never had a problem with. They tolerate the low temperatures well and don't bother the newts at all.

 

[troutnerd]

That is a very ambitous plan, and I think Kweichowensis would do well living like that.As for crawling out,I've been shocked (and saddened) by unexpected escapes by critters I never guessed would get out of a tank. Even tiny holes are potential escape hatches. A screen cover is a must.

 

[Kaysie]

The biggest concern with mixing species from the same region is in the wild, they have a MUCH bigger habitat than you can provide in the small tank. So they have more room to get away from each other, find food, etc.

I think that tank is FANTASTIC, and I would totally recommend it for rough-skinned newts, Taricha granulosa. They're large, boldly colored, outgoing personalities, semi-aquatic (although I've found they're generally more aquatic than not), and generally pretty cool. I wouldn't recommend any of the ambystomatid species, as they don't enter the water outside of breeding season.

 

[jstedman1]

I like the idea and picture!

 

[Jennewt]

Interesting concept. I think they could "navigate" the bridge, in the sense that they could climb over it, no problem. But my concern looking at the diagram is that a newt over in the water side might have trouble finding the bridge if it needed it. A newt that wants land and can't find it will flail around the edge of the tank and can eventually drown. You could add additional island areas around the base of the bridge on the water side, and this could prevent the possible problem.