How much cold can axolotls handle, and hybrid question

[keithp]

This question started reading that anatomically morphed axolotls could hybridize with tiger salamanders, but won't because tiger salamanders breed due to weather changes and migrate to vernal pools so captive breeding is impossible. I live on Long Island, New York and tiger salamanders live here. So being adult tiger salamanders hibernate as adults, could axolotls that morphed live in the wild here? I read they naturally live in cold water, but hibernating on land as adults by burrowing allows them to live where in winter it gets to freezing and snow. Would a hybrid of the two morph naturally if eggs are laid in vernal pools that dry up quickly, forcing quick transformation.

 

[Boomsloth]

Tiger salamanders are very hard to breed but not impossible and if you dig around this site you will find someone who has bred them. Now axolotl/tiger morphs exist, in fact that was how the albino axolotl was produced but it requires artificial insemination. Axolotls develop their sex organs while in the larval stage while tiger sals need to morph into adults first. I'm not certain if a 50/50 hybrid will morph. Axolotls could live in almost freezing water.hopefully someone else will chime in.

 

[auntiejude]

1. Axolotls almost never morph unless treated with hormones.
2. Morphed axolotls don't live very long.
3. Axolotls could probably not survive a NY winter outdoors, they do not hibernate.
4. It is illegal to release a non-native animal into the wild in the USA (and almost everywhere else) so the whole question is pointless.
5. Even if you could successfully hybridise axies and tiger, why would you?

 

[Azhael]

Actually if one were to attempt and hybridisation of the two species, it would be donde with a regular axolotl and a neotenic tiger salamander...not with a morphed axolotl.
Captive breeding is far from impossible. There have been several cases of VERY successful breedings in europe to the point where the market actually becomes temporarily saturated with CB offspring. John also managed to breed them in the states.
Where have you read that axolotl naturally hibernate in burrows? Axolotls are obligate neotenes. Morphed axolotls only appear in captivity where natural hibernation in burrows is not exactly a possibility.
A hybrid would morph naturally if the tiger salamander parental was a morphed individual. A hybrid from a neotenic population would presumably remain neotenic itself.
The important thing is...why on earth are you making these strange and missinformed questions?

 

[keithp]

It has occurred that rarely axolotls do morph to adults naturally, a genetic abnormality for them, and if morphed young can live much longer than an older specimen forced to morph. I read that staying aquatic is an adaptation that helped them survive, as there are tiger salamander populations that remain fully aquatic. But originally axolotl could and did morph to land adults, hence genetic throwback why some morph to land dwellers its rare but possible.

Being related to tiger salamanders, which morph out of vernal pools and hibernate in burrows one could assume the populations of axolotl that once lived on land had to hibernate as they are found in climates that get cold and you can't find prey on land when it's freezing! All mole salamanders burrow and are secretive.

That is why I was asking if they could survive in my climate tiger salamanders live in. It seems like it's possible if naturally morphing axolotls were to be created. Or even the aquatic form if they really can handle freezing temps underwater.

Land axolotl should be behaviorally no different than tiger salamander.


Why do you say mating can only occur one way or another, both species mate under water so whether it's female axolotl male tiger or female tiger male axolotl both could perform mating.

I think for pet trade if we could get two naturally morphed axolotl to mate perhaps we could get natural morphing axolotls. If not, that is where the tiger salamander hybrid comes in, to get the natural morph form to keep breeding to eliminate neoteny.

 

[keithp]

1. Axolotls almost never morph unless treated with hormones.
2. Morphed axolotls don't live very long.
3. Axolotls could probably not survive a NY winter outdoors, they do not hibernate.
4. It is illegal to release a non-native animal into the wild in the USA (and almost everywhere else) so the whole question is pointless.
5. Even if you could successfully hybridise axies and tiger, why would you?

Question 5, look above your post to see the answer to that.

 

[auntiejude]

If you want a terrestrial salamander, buy a terrestrial salamander. If you want an aquatic axolotl, buy an aquatic axolotl.

Hybrids are not needed in either the pet or research industries.

 

[Azhael]

It has occurred that rarely axolotls do morph to adults naturally, a genetic abnormality for them, and if morphed young can live much longer than an older specimen forced to morph. I read that staying aquatic is an adaptation that helped them survive, as there are tiger salamander populations that remain fully aquatic. But originally axolotl could and did morph to land adults, hence genetic throwback why some morph to land dwellers its rare but possible.

Do you have any references to it happening in the wild?
Domestic axolotls do morph on their own on occassion, but domestic axolotls are likely to be hybrids themselves. The time at which metamorphosis is induced does seem to significantly affect the lifespan and outlook of the individual with fully adult axolotls morphing badly and having short lives and frequently, severe deformities, while maturing axolotls morph into healthy, long-lived animals. But again, this is known from domestic axolotls.

It is reasonable to expect morphed domestic axolotls to display the same behaviours of burrowing and the same capability for enduring long periods of cool weather with little or no activity (tiger salamanders don't strictly hybernate). However, it may not be reasonable to expect them to follow the breeding cycles that tiger salamanders do or be susceptible to the same inducing factors.

I didn't say mating can only occur one way or the other, i said if anyone were to do it, doing it with neotenic individuals is way easier and far more likely to succeed, for the simple reason that both typical neotenic axolotls and neotenic tiger salamanders require far less stimulation to breed, whereas morphed tiger salamanders require more complex triggers to induce breeding and the a similar scenario should be expected for morphed axolotls, although not necesarily identical.

Why would "naturally" morphing "axolotls" (which would be in fact hybrids -or more hybrid-) be desirable? To meet the fancy of humans? That doesn't seem to me to be a very strong reason to further hybridize domestic axolotls. Modifying captive animals to meet our whims has a long and terrible history of resulting in bad news for the animals.

 

[bugdozer]

Axolotls are obligate neotenes. Morphed axolotls only appear in captivity

You say this, then demand evidence of someone with an opposing viewpoint. Just because it has not been observed in the wild does not mean it doesn't (or can't) happen. It's not like we can go and fish them out of Xochimilco and experiment on this theme, is it?
And an obligate neotene is something which cannot survive as anything other than a neotene, which is not the case with axolotls. Their lifespan may be shortened but they don't drop dead right away.

 

[Azhael]

I say that because it is the only currently supportable position. Just because it hasn't been observed doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it does mean you are not justified in asserting that it does.
Furthermore as i explained previously, captive "axolotls" in which metamorphosis, both spontaneous and artificial have been observed cannot be assumed to be axolotls, they are most probably hybrids. Therefore they are not valid subjects from which to make extrapolations for wild axolotl populations.
As far as we know wild axolotls are obligate neotenes, and that's all we can assert until someone demonstrates otherwise. This is supported by the fact that adult domestic axolotls that morph don't survive long and suffer severe deformities. You don't have to drop death inmediately to be considered an obligate neotene....inviability is not restricted to instant death.

If you like, however, i have heard the term "inducible obligate" neotene used for axolotls and this is probably correct for domestic and wild ones.

 

[Boomsloth]

The only reason people believe axolotls that have morphed have reduced lifespans is mostly because those axolotls morphed to escape stressful conditions. I am almost positive that if you look on this site you will find one member who has an axolotl that was morphed in humane conditions through controlled injections of iodine that activated the thyroid which has been proven in axolotls to be not active when compared to other ambystomids. Anyway the point is that under controlled injections axolotls have no reduced lifespans and that theory is a complete myth.


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[Chinadog]

Do you mean if they are induced to morph before they are mature? Axolotls that are morphed after sexual maturity do very badly and their lifespan is drastically shortened.

 

[Azhael]

Chinadog is correct. People don't believe that based solely on domestic axolotls that have morphed to scape bad conditions (which in itself could be an hability obtained through hybridisation with A.tigrinum, and may or may not be found in wild axolotls), it's also based on adult animals artificially morphed through methodologies like the one you described. Both groups of animals seem to show a significant death rate during the process of morphing and the results for the ones that complete the process are similar.

 

[bugdozer]

I say that because it is the only currently supportable position. Just because it hasn't been observed doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it does mean you are not justified in asserting that it does.
Furthermore as i explained previously, captive "axolotls" in which metamorphosis, both spontaneous and artificial have been observed cannot be assumed to be axolotls, they are most probably hybrids. Therefore they are not valid subjects from which to make extrapolations for wild axolotl populations.
As far as we know wild axolotls are obligate neotenes, and that's all we can assert until someone demonstrates otherwise. This is supported by the fact that adult domestic axolotls that morph don't survive long and suffer severe deformities. You don't have to drop death inmediately to be considered an obligate neotene....inviability is not restricted to instant death.

If you like, however, i have heard the term "inducible obligate" neotene used for axolotls and this is probably correct for domestic and wild ones.

There is at least one recorded instance of an axolotl kept as a pet in Mexico City spontaneously morphing. It is far more likely that axolotls in that area are descended from a more "pureblooded" strain because - unlike the ones bred as pets in Europe and other places - axolotls are farmed as food in Mexico City, and those farmed animals originated with stock caught wild in the Xochimilco canals, back when every time you cast a net into the water you could pull out an axolotl (not like today, sadly). There were thousands of them, and although I have no proof, circumstantial evidence suggests that wildtype axolotls kept domestically in that region are much less likely to be directly descended from the six original specimens taken and imported to France that most of our pets are descended from.
There is just as much evidence to suggest a pure blooded wild axolotl can morph as there is to suggest that only hybrids can. For you to come firmly down on one side or the other is not scientific. I suspect the best people to ask would be the researchers who are running the conservation programme in Mexico City, or the farmers who breed hundreds of the little buggers for food. Asking people who have only ever encountered axolotls known to contain a percentage of hybrid genes is futile in answering this question.
Furthermore, since research has suggested that axolotls returned to the neotenic lifestyle after originally being conventional salamanders, it is reasonable to suggest that the genes for making the transformation still lie dormant within them - much as humans have the genes to grow a tail and birds have the genes for dinosaur type teeth. When evolution brings in a new feature, it often doesn't erase the old ones completely.

 

[Azhael]

So, one data point of one pet axolotl of unknown genetics? That's not even remotely sufficient to say something like this: "There is just as much evidence to suggest a pure blooded wild axolotl can morph as there is to suggest that only hybrids can".

Look, i'm not saying wild axolotls can't spontaneously morph....i'm saying i don't know of any confirmed instances and therefore withhold judgement. I will only make a positive assertion about what i know, which is that domestic axolotls can morph, and that only axolotls that morph before sexual maturity, develop into healthy individuals. You are the one speculating from flawed premises, and telling me i'm unscientific for sticking to the available evidence...
Yes, the hability to morph normally, into healthy terrestrial individuals COULD be found as an atavism in wild axolotls. However, atavisms like human tails and chicken teeth are terrible examples because these are structures controlled by genes that are clearly damaged. You don't ever see a human tail that is fully developed and functional, what you see are stubby things with malformed vertebrae and little musculature. In the case of chickens, the teeth have been ARTIFICIALLY induced to express in embryos and appear as poorly developed vestiges. No actual full grown chicken with fully developed teeth as of yet....This happens because even though the homeotic genes that control the cascade of genetic expression that results in the structures appearing, which are normally turned off, become turned on in mutant individuals, the rest of the genes involved in the formation and development of the structures are damaged, by simple genetic drift (which acts on those genes because they are no longer under selective pressures).
This could be the situation in wild axolotls, they may have the genes for metamorphosis, but they could be damaged, or maybe it is other regulatory genes that are damaged and this would explain why even mature domestic axolotls develop into deformed metamorphs that are shortlived and we only know of healthy morphed axolotls in the specific situation of inmature domestic ones.

The single data point for this pet axolotl in Mexico, do you know if it was healthy and long lived? Because, you see, that actually matters. It's not the same to say that wild axolotls can morph than it is to say that they morph and they are viable. I'm perfectly willing to accept both, but i'll need evidence for that.

 

[Azhael]

It seems that naturally and spontaneously morphing domestic axolotls already exist. There appears to be a bloodline where a pre-maturity, spontaneous metamorphosis has become fixed. Being domestic axolotls it's likely that this originates from an A.tigrinum introgression.

 

[Boomsloth]

It seems that naturally and spontaneously morphing domestic axolotls already exist. There appears to be a bloodline where a pre-maturity, spontaneous metamorphosis has become fixed. Being domestic axolotls it's likely that this originates from an A.tigrinum introgression.

Do you have the source for this bloodline?

 

[Calgarycoppers]

Its a 6 year old post like why tell someone to chill about something from this long ago.

Dude chill, she/he is not going to breed it was just a question.