I made it! (Neurergus kaiseri eggs)

[Spectacled90]

Hi!
This is my first attempt to breed Neurergus kaiseri and the result seems very promising!!

I stabulated my newts in a semi-terrestrial setup with a small part of water 5-6 cm deep for 50 days at 3-13 °C.
On the first of January I put them in a heated aquarium (60 liters) with water temperature between 19-23°C.

I saw courtship behaviour only early in the morning, when the aquarium light wasn't on.

Egg-laying started on 16th January and up to now the female layed over 80 eggs!!!


Thanks to Alan for his precious suggestions!!!



Some pics of the first eggs:

 

[benw]

Well done!!

Its always heartwarming to have something as beautiful and endangered breed,and just means its just that tiny bit closer to them not being wild caught.

They are lovely creatures and they are on a list for a future project for me.

Good luck with raising the young, make sure you have plenty of live food for them!!! and let us know how you get on with them.

All the best

Ben

 

[coendeurloo]

That's looking good Giacomo, congratulations! Do the N. kaiseri eat some eggs?

 

[tony]

I well done on the eggs can you tell me how old your newts are.

 

[Spectacled90]

That's looking good Giacomo, congratulations! Do the N. kaiseri eat some eggs?

I remove the eggs when I see them after they have been laid but a lot of them have been laid where I can't reach them so I keep an eye on them.
Up till now they are all still there so I don't think there is any predation on eggs.

 

[Spectacled90]

I well done on the eggs can you tell me how old your newts are.

The male is CB 2006 and the female is a wc (total length over 14 cm)

 

[Spectacled90]

Thanks for compliment!!!

 

[John]

Congratulations Giacomo. You know, I was talking to Nate Nelson (whose zoo breeds this species) about their status in the wild and we had to admit that it's probably only a matter of time before they are listed as CITES Appendix I. When that happens it will make trade between hobbyists impossible, and in the US it will also mean that trade between individual states is against the law. So the people who are breeding these newts will likely have no where to send their offspring some time in the future. It saddens me a great deal. Let's hope it's for the best.

 

[coendeurloo]

How are the eggs doing Giacomo?

 

[Spectacled90]

I think CITES is the right way to follow for the conservation of this species.

The development of eggs proceeds well! I have approximately 60 fertile eggs but the egg-laying isn't ended!


Sorry for the bad quality of the images....

 

[coendeurloo]

That's looking very well Giacomo, I like the photos! Keep us posted

 

[Jake]

So the people who are breeding these newts will likely have no where to send their offspring some time in the future. It saddens me a great deal. Let's hope it's for the best.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a group of elitist hobbiests is formed to ranch large numbers of kaiseri. If they were able to raise 2,000 animals to maturity would this have any affect on that happening? Would that restrict anyone from getting them, or just people who didn't have them prior to their status change?

 

[John]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a group of elitist hobbiests is formed to ranch large numbers of kaiseri. If they were able to raise 2,000 animals to maturity would this have any affect on that happening?

That is very doubtful. The program would have to have some sort of kosher regard from the likes of the IUCN, which is unlikely since hobbyists are thought of is such an unscientific light. There would have to be mass reintroductions under the auspices of some recognised body.

Would that restrict anyone from getting them, or just people who didn't have them prior to their status change?

You can have them already or acquire them within a US state (or within most countries that don't have internal state-to-state restrictions).

 

[tylototriton]

To add to what John is saying. Laws like CITES are not based upon the captive status of the animal. The animal could be thriving in captivity, but if its natural populations are dwindling then their trade is restricted. I think that the idea is that you can not differentiate between a captive bred and wild caught individual so the only way to stop their exploitation is to completely halt their trade. This captive vs. wild populations thing happens a lot. Species like the Eastern Indigo Snake are closely regulated even though their captive populations are quite stable. Even species like Atelopus zeteki, which are reproducing and thriving in captivity, cannot be traded because their wild populations are so close to extinction. We have this problem in CT as well because there are species whose wild populations are protected in CT (Wood Turtle, Spotted Turtle, Copperhead...) which are illegal to own even if captive bred.

To take this one step further, I think we really need to start having mass reintroductions. I'm getting tired of always hearing about creating captive breeding programs to "save the species" but I have still yet to hear of a major reintroduction, at least for amphibians.

I'll restrain myself from continuing this rant. Congratulations on the success! I can't wait till I can get some.

Alex

 

[waterdawggin]

When that happens it will make trade between hobbyists impossible, and in the US it will also mean that trade between individual states is against the law.

I was under the impression that CITES dealt with import and export of species to and from a country, and unless listed as a federally threatened or endangered species by USFWS, (at least in the US) that intrastate travel was allowed?

Perhaps I have been mistaken?

 

[Jennewt]

To add to what John is saying. Laws like CITES are not based upon the captive status of the animal. The animal could be thriving in captivity, but if its natural populations are dwindling then their trade is restricted. I think that the idea is that you can not differentiate between a captive bred and wild caught individual so the only way to stop their exploitation is to completely halt their trade. This captive vs. wild populations thing happens a lot. Species like the Eastern Indigo Snake are closely regulated even though their captive populations are quite stable. Even species like Atelopus zeteki, which are reproducing and thriving in captivity, cannot be traded because their wild populations are so close to extinction. We have this problem in CT as well because there are species whose wild populations are protected in CT (Wood Turtle, Spotted Turtle, Copperhead...) which are illegal to own even if captive bred.

To take this one step further, I think we really need to start having mass reintroductions. I'm getting tired of always hearing about creating captive breeding programs to "save the species" but I have still yet to hear of a major reintroduction, at least for amphibians.

I'll restrain myself from continuing this rant. Congratulations on the success! I can't wait till I can get some.

Alex

There have been a few amphibian reintroductions, for example the Boreal Toad:
http://armi.usgs.gov/feature_boreal_toad.asp
But in order to happen within the law, these programs have to be carried out by government authorities. Hobbyists do not play a role, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. There are major "issues" with re-introductions (pathogens, inbreeding, etc), and hobbyists just don't have the resources or credibility. This is not to say that hobbyists can't be part of a captive breeding program that can help with conservation; if this interests you, look into TreeWalkers. But I don't think we are going to see tons of reintroduction programs. They are just too expensive to "do right".

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a group of elitist hobbiests is formed to ranch large numbers of kaiseri. If they were able to raise 2,000 animals to maturity would this have any affect on that happening? Would that restrict anyone from getting them, or just people who didn't have them prior to their status change?

I think that what Jake may be suggesting is... could anyone breed enough kaiseri to put them in the same class with axolotls? Axolotls are CITES listed, but nobody bothers with enforcing the restrictions on them within the US because they are so incredibly abundant. I suspect there is no way this could happen for another species, but it's an interesting idea.

 

[Azhael]

That´s right, it´s expensive, it´s extremely complicated to do right, and most of all, it´s not usually the biggest problem.

I know of people that think that reintroduction is the solution to all problems. That´s so far from reality it´s almost hilarious (in a sad sad way). The biggest problem of all is loss of habitat. If that problem is not mended somehow, reintroductions are just completely fruitless. You can´t reintroduce a species if the habitat has gone down the sewer...
Well you can, but they will all die, so...
Reintroductions are only a small part of the solution(that doesn´t mean it´s not the last chance for many species)...habitat conservation is far more important. After all if an habitat is apropriate...life will find it´s way.

 

[fishkeeper]

Considering where they are from in the wild reintroduction and habitat restoration is going to be extremely difficult.

If a reintroduction programme was ever started...do you think hobbyist animals could be called upon for additional genetic diversity?

 

[nate]

The habitat is fine, it's illegal collection for the pet trade that will cause the extinction of kaiseri. Climate change might affect them 50 years on.

 

[waterdawggin]

While I do not work with this species, I think it is great that people are working with them. It's more than likely a multi-tiered issue why they are disappearing. As mentioned, habitat degradation and the pet trade have taken their toll. Viral illnesses that we are just beginning to understand in addition to issues such as Chytrid fungus may play a role as well.

http://www.iran-daily.com/1387/3353/html/iranica.htm

Not sure if anyone read this..

As far as reintroductions are concerned, it is hard enough for these programs to be introduced into the US let alone Iran. The US has no jurisdiction there and as relations between the two countries become increasingly intense, I would doubt that we would ever have a hand in such a reintroduction.

Turtle hobbyists (more like PhDs and DVMs) and conservation groups have helped establish reintroductions in countries such as India however, so it's not to say it will never happen. The hobbyists however will likely not be involved however. Why? There are many concerns over issues stated before that many hobbyists are either unaware of or do not have control of. An example would be biosecurity measures between species.

However, this post leads me back to my original question.

Axolotls are CITES listed, but nobody bothers with enforcing the restrictions on them within the US because they are so incredibly abundant.

I was under the impression that CITES only involved the import or export of a species. Not the interstate transport of them. I thought that interstrate transport was only affected by a federal USFWS threatened or endangered status or maybe the Lacy Act.

Can anyone please shed light on this issue with references please?