ID needed and some help needed

[porkchop48]

I had this little guy given to me this weekend at a show.

So now I need some help on a set up. Any suggestions?

 

[Bellabelloo]

Lovely

Have a look at this post :-

Caudata Culture Species Entry - Tylototriton verrucosus

Then if you work your way through the post in this section, you'll find lots of helpful posts.

 

[porkchop48]

Thank you

 

[catfish dude]

Hello,

to be honest I would say it is a shanjing. How big it is?

 

[Azhael]

I´d also say T.shanjing, but this genus is a mess...

 

[porkchop48]

Now here is where I get confused. How many different kinds are there?
And is there any way to find out for sure.
I would like to get a couple more after I figure out this one.

It looks more like this
Caudata Culture Species Entry - Tylototriton shanjing

Is the T Shanjing and the T Verrucosus close to the same? or is this where the "genus is a mess" comes into play?

 

[Kaysie]

They're theoretically different species, but people seem to be in a fuss about whether they really are, or shanjing/kweichow/verrucosus are different 'morphs'.

My vote's also for shanjing.

 

[catfish dude]

Hello,

well scientific names don’t necessarily represent biological species. And the most popular species concept is a biological one. Little search comes with results as this in a definition of biological species: "species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups" going further "Interbreeding between different species is prevented by isolating mechanisms" in other words we have names given by some scientists and we can use them to help sort things up in a messy taxonomic world but you have always remember that nature do not write books and do not read them as well and we are just hobbists in most cases so confusions are normal

 

[Azhael]

It´s not as simple as that xD The definition of species has become tricky in recent years since new hibridation studies and examples have appeared. Even certain species from different genera can interbreed and produce fertile offspring (often with hybrid vigor). There´s also cryptic species and a whole lot of stuff that complicates things xD
Taxonomy these days is pretty reliable. An exception would be these guys, since asiatic caudates are in dire need of a revision to their taxonomy and a good study of their wild populations.
In the hobby we call animals like you have, T.shanjing, but the scientific validity of that name is disputable, some people classify it as a subspecies of T.verrucosus.

 

[porkchop48]

It´s not as simple as that xD The definition of species has become tricky in recent years since new hibridation studies and examples have appeared. Even certain species from different genera can interbreed and produce fertile offspring (often with hybrid vigor). There´s also cryptic species and a whole lot of stuff that complicates things xD
Taxonomy these days is pretty reliable. An exception would be these guys, since asiatic caudates are in dire need of a revision to their taxonomy and a good study of their wild populations.
In the hobby we call animals like you have, T.shanjing, but the scientific validity of that name is disputable, some people classify it as a subspecies of T.verrucosus.

So when I start looking for a "friend" for him which name should I look for T.shanjing or T.verrucosus?

Who knew accepting a paper bag from an nice older gentleman would cause so much confusion :wacko::wacko:

 

[ummi]

AW: Re: ID needed and some help needed

These are pictures of my Shanjing,
ummi

 

[shredder83]

Since I was there and saw it in person, I have to put my vote in. I'm going with T.shanjing.

 

[Azhael]

If you don´t have locality data, then you are in a pickle.
I´m assuming it is a WC animals due to the species and the size, i would try and ask about where they were collected from.

 

[porkchop48]

The guy had had him for two years according to what I was told. He said he just did not have time for him any more.

So is he destined to be alone the rest of his life? :-(

 

[Azhael]

Well, it´s not like it´s a problem for them to be alone. They are not social in any way (gregarious at most and that´s mainly juveniles) and being alone has no impact on their health, lifespan, etc.

In terms of breeding, that honestly depends on wether you think preserving the genetic integrity of a population is worth the effort or not. Some people don´t care, which i personally think it´s a real pitty. If you do, then finding animals that come from the same population (which doesn´t necessarily mean exact same location) is almost the only way to guarantee that the captive population remains coherent with the wild ones. With other species that´s easy to avoid, but with these guys it´s currently risky to assume they are genetically isolated and well-defined, given that they need some work done on their taxonomy. It´s possible that they are part of a cryptic species complex in which case animals that seem very similar can be genetically different. To be sure, you either need specific locality data, or DNA testing.

 

[porkchop48]

To be sure, you either need specific locality data, or DNA testing.

Nope, I aint got either of them.

Granted I would like to eventually get into breeding some newts and sally but if it is better for this guy to remain along that so be it. It actually gives me an excuse to bring him into work and set him up a nice little 15 gal here

I breed a few darts frogs and there is so much emphasis on keeping lines pure, not causing hybrids, etc so I have a small clue what are you are saying. And appreciate you being honest with me.

 

[catfish dude]

Hello,

well I cannot second your opinion in 100% Azhael but of course you are right. Scientists do they job and it is great we can, in most cases use it and it will be very reliable.
As I'm beginner in caudatas so I won't discuss more about current taxonomic of this group because I have read only few papers. However in a fish world ( and I have read probably few hundreds of scientific papers about many different fishes) confusions caused by scientific papers are normal thing and I guess it will be very similar with caudates and other groups of animals as well because scientists are humans as well

Here are two examples
Polypterus teugelsi described by Dr. Ralf Britz. In original description you will find an information that true P. teugelsi will have black pelvic fins. Since it is one of the smallest polypterus species it is highly sought after by many hobbysts but all fishes imported from it's original locality turned out to be something different because they did lack this black colouration of pelvic fins. All other things like scales number, rays in fins number was ok except this coloration. So you could probably ask yourself what the heck is goin on here? A natural hybridisation? Another species? Well you could ask a Dr. Ralf Britz and he will say that he descibed this species on a base of dead specimens which when out of water for longer time start to show black pelvic fins coloration. And this is only a single example - there is hundred of this kind of mistakes.

Another example:
Nature Wonder, Jewel of the Rift a mignificient Lake Tanganiyka and it's species flock.
Recently there was a lot of scientific expeditions to this lake because it is perfect place for someone who want to see evelution working before its eyes. And ok it is great a lot of work a lot of new species but again how did it look like? A group of scientists sits 150 km away from a lake in a city and a group of native people is catching fishes and then bring them to scientists - how much reliable this kind of description can be if scientists did not even see an environment of fishes?

And I'm not trying to say that it is worthless because it is not. It's great there is so many new methods like DNA checking and other advanced stuff but how you can be sure that in 10-20 years there won't be even a better method? Newer species? Newer subspecies?

Don't understand me wrong. I'm reading almost every new paper about tropical fishes which I'm aware of. My head is a scientific latin names library and it is only possible thanks to hard work of scientists but as you said it is not that simple .

 

[Azhael]

Interesting! I also know of a few mistakes, some of which are frankly quite funny xD
Oh, and the Tanganyika lake...what a wonderful and unique environment. The richness of species is breathtaking. I knew a guy who was going to join research in the area and he was literally shaking at the knees with excitement xD

Even if a new technique or a new revision of the taxonomy of a group appears, it´s unlikely it will have any effect on the genetic status of captive populations if things are done well. My meaning is, if you only breed animals from the same location, that share a number of significant characteristics and you are careful so that you keep the bloodline isolated, and eliminate aberrants or weak offspring, and introduce "correct" blood when necessary (meaning blood from the very same population), you will have a captive population that remains faithful to the wild ones. In such a case, a change in taxonomy is enormously unlikely to cause problems. Only in the rare cases of cryptic species, superspecies, etc, you can find animals that are fenotipically similar but genetically divergent, and such situations are definitely rare. As an example, if i breed C.p.sasayamae and all my animals come from the same location, any change in their taxonomy will have no effect on their genetic integrity. Wether the subspecies is raised to specific level, wether the subspecies is eliminated altogether, it won´t have an impact on the genetic integrity on and individual population. It will just mean i will have to change the name i use for them xDD But they will still be what they are, not at a subspecific level, but at a poblational level.
In lamest (and completely untrue and fictional) words, if in the future some alien race decided that humans represent different species (Ha!), i would still be spanish xD


PS: Porkchop, i´m sorry for deviating the topic. Once taxonomy is touched i can´t seem to stop xD

 

[Logan]

Porkchop congrats on the newt. I am also a fellow dendro/mantella breeder who has wondered into newts recently and it has been an interesting change of pace. Also can I say, WHY doesn't this ever happen to me. I got to shows all the time with no such exchange! I want a paper bag full of newt. Anyway I hope you can get this all sorted out. As one "species" seems to be highly adjusted to water and the other not as much, maybe you can try offering a 50/50 with some deeper water and see what this little guy likes. I know its not a reliable method but it may lean the guess of what "species" it really is for certain. Though yes it does seem like shanjing. Anyway thats my piece, congrats
Logan

 

[porkchop48]

I was warned that this hobby might be as addicting as the frog hobby... I think they were right, So Logan be careful

And Azhael - No need to apologize. I got my answers that I needed to go ahead deviate away