Identification problems.

[Azhael]

Hi, a member from another forum recently posted a couple of pics of his breeding Triturus. After watching the pics (labeled as T.cristatus) i commented that i thought the male looked like carnifex. A discussion started hehe and i decided to post the pics here hoping that someone could give us a little help as to what they probably are.
I know identifying these species is a pain, but your opinions will be apreciated.

For some info about the newts, i´ll say the owner insists they have to be cristatus, because apparently in Argentina, these animals are descendant of wild caught animals (from Britain), that were imported back in 1990. However, the owner says he has had doubts about them before, and the actual species has been discussed between argentinian hobbyists. Also, in recent years the rest of Triturus species have been introduced in the market there, so the possibility of missidentification or even hybrids is a possibility.

So the doubt is wether they are slightly odd looking cristatus(since they have been interbred for generations) or carnifex. I for the love of me can´t help but think the animal in the pictures is T.carnifex.

Thanx

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/...chos/Anfibios/Triturus cristatus/dsc01601.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/...chos/Anfibios/Triturus cristatus/dsc01604.jpg

And one female: (there´s a possibility he actually has both species)
http://www.drpez.org/albums/album937/aaa.jpg

 

[Yahilles]

I also think that they're Triturus cristatus. Where is the white speckling of cristatus?

 

[franceschino]

I'd say T. carnifex, but I'm not 100% sure

 

[John]

Definitely not like any cristatus I've ever seen.

 

[Azhael]

Thanks for your replies.
The lack of white speckling, the less deep dentation of the crest, the big black dots on the sides, the pointy head, and the over-all colour of the animal are what makes me think they are carnifex....but since it´s sometimes so complicted to diferenciate these species i apreciate all the opinions

 

[lims]

I say carnifex, according to my free with the Guardian newspaper amphibian wallchart..

 

[John]

Man, I want one of those. When was that?

 

[lims]

Not so long ago, You can get them on Ebay uk:

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/_W0QQ_fromZR46?_nkw=guardian+amphibians&_fromfsb=0&_trksid=m270.l1313

 

[TristanH]

Hi Rodrigo,

I've nothing to add re: the identification of the T. cristatus group microspecies as I have no experience of any of them apart from T. cristatus itself. However, a couple of comments:

T. cristatus, the native British crested newt, has been strictly protected for some time, certainly since before 1990. It is fairly widespread across the country though, and in my experience is quite variable. It's illegal to keep T. cristatus in captivity without a licence, so either these animals were not true T. cristatus, or they were exported illegally. There are also a couple of feral populations of T. carnifex, the product of escapes / illegal releases.

T. carnifex was not widely recognised as a separate species until sometime in the mid 1990s (at least in Britain), so specimens of this species may have been sent under the name T. cristatus.

Tristan

 

[Azhael]

Those were exactly two of my points in the discussion Tristan, thank you.
I personally think the discussion is closed and they should be labeled T.carnifex from now on, i just hope everybody from Argentina in the forum, checks the post, so that they can properly identify their animals and avoid hybrids.