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Identifying eggs

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peter

Guest
I collected some eggs from a small pond near Iola, Wisconsin, and I've had them for a bit over a week now, I found them on April 9th in a deeper area of the pond (about 3 feet.) I know that they were not there on April 2nd, and that males were making their way there. I suspect that they're tiger salamander eggs, but I'd appreciate it if anyone could give me some tips identifying them.

There's four species of salamander that breed in the pond, tiger, spotted, blue spotted, and the central newt. They're in a clump of about 20-30, so they're not newts. The egg mass is a cloudy white color, and it was attached to a plant about midway in the water. I've got a picture from when I just found them, but my camera doesn't work so great at that close and underwater.

Thanks in advance!
14986.jpg
 
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nate

Guest
Hi Peter, laterale rarely lay more than 10 eggs in an egg mass, and maculatum support algae colonies which turn the eggs green. Looks like your guess of tigrinum would be the most likely ID.
 
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paris

Guest
FYI.....out here in colorado, tigers lay individual eggs, no clumps even if they are put in a tank overnight to lay.
 
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nate

Guest
paris, that's a characteristic of A. mavortium, not A. tigrinum.
 
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paris

Guest
so are we talking subspecies difference then -or have they been separated finally (the CC sites just list Ambystoma mavoritum) so they are now different species?-some argue for speciation in jap firebellies who have differences in breeding dances, so are egg laying differences in the same category? i have field guides that are over 8 years old so it would be nice to know if they are actually truly different now. if i recall right one factor for determining species difference is if they two can produce fertile offspring. can you clear this up for me then?

p.s. ...nice pic, but i thought you had more hair than that...
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nate

Guest
Yes, they have been seperated on the basis of genetic dissimilarity. The egg-laying differences were not the basis, but in retrospect, were a clue. There are many different species concepts and there is intense disagreement on what constitutes a species, so I'm afraid I cannot clear that up. Generally, most salamander systematists these days are putting far more weight on genetics rather than behavior/reproductive isolation.

The evidence for mavortium being seperate from tigrinum is presented in:

Shaffer, H. Bradley; McKnight, Mark L.; 1996, The polytypic species revisited: genetic differentiation and molecular phylogenetics of the tiger salamander Ambystoma tigrinum (Amphibia: Caudata) complex. Ecology. 50 (1):417-433

and

Irschick, Duncan J.; Shaffer, H. Bradley (1997). The polytypic species revisited: Morphological differentiation among tiger salamanders (Ambystoma tigrinum) (Amphibia: Caudata). Herpetologica, 53(1), 30-49.
 
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paris

Guest
does this separation allow for people on the east coast now to keep the barred or blotched tiger sals?(where the local tigers are banned)-or does their fish and wildlife not see them as different? would they not allow them in the state because of possible crossbreeding issues?
 
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nate

Guest
Paris: I think you'd have to check individually with each state. It surely wouldn't surprise me if a state was still unaware of this separation, but I think if push came to shove, a court would rule in your favor.
 
E

edward

Guest
New Jersey prohibits all tiger salamanders regardless if they are tigrinum or not as the state does not make a distinction (they are afraid of hybridization between the species and an inability to readily distinguish between the species). In addition necturus and axolotls are also prohibited as they do not expect the field officer to be able to distinguish between the different species. (There has been some off and on talk for banning all larval salamanders and newts for the same reason).
Ed
 
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nate

Guest
Wow, that's insanity. Pretty ridiculous to hear they'd rather legislate than educate their own officers, especially on a fear that is hypothetical at best.

(Message edited by nate on April 20, 2004)
 
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edward

Guest
I think it is a cost saving manuver. It is cheaper to legislate it away than to pay for training. But I agree it is pretty silly.
Ed
 
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nate

Guest
Well, I considered that as well but training on this particular matter would consist of a memo or email at best. All it takes is a simple paragraph to competently explain the differences and what to look for.
 
E

edward

Guest
You have higher expectations from the bureaucracy than I do....
Ed
 
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  • PvH:
    I've advertised my CB alpine newts for sale UK but no offers so far. I'm looking for a carer/enthusiast so I put a price to deter people who might not be serious about the responsibilities of the undertaking but how do I find a genuine enthusiast who will take over care? I'm not looking for money, just a good home for the newts.
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  • FragileCorpse:
    Hey guys, its way too hot where I live right now. Temperatures 40 degree celcius outside, making it like 30 degrees inside. Ive got ice packs on my yellow spotted salamanders hidey rock, he acts like he hates it though. Am I keeping him too cold? I think my temp gauge might be messed up, or at least in the wrong spot. I put the tank temp gauge in the top left corner of his large tank, where it says its 80 degrees fahrenheit, which I am aware is too hot, which is what makes me put the ice packs on his rock at the bottom of the cage, but the bottom of his cage feels a lot cooler tha 80 degrees. Should I move my temp gauge down to the bottom corner where he hangs out the most? Should I get a soil temperature probe so I can tell what temperature the soil that hes laying on is?
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  • FragileCorpse:
    Because his soil is certainly not 80 degrees fahrenheit, and I dont want to freeze the poor bugger with ice packs if he really doesnt need them. Hes been doing fine, but Im just so stressed because I cant get ANy information on how to handle this little guy. Theyre illegal to keep without a permit, but this one would not have survived without my intervention. So I cant call and ask anyone for help. If theres a betetr site than this one, I sure havent found it. But I never get any replies here. We are all just asking questions and getting none answered basically. Its really frustrating as I just want to help this little dude be happy and healthy. All I can get him to eat is potato bugs as well. I cant find anything else that he will eat. Is that even okay? :/ hes been eating strictly those since may first.
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  • FragileCorpse:
    Does ANYONE know of a site more active than this where I can get my questions answered? My little bud needs help and Im just not getting it here.
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  • FragileCorpse:
    Alright well I bought a bunch of stuff for his tank and hope it helps. Im getting extremelty frustrated that bI cant get an answer. Guess buddies just gonna have to die or some shit. like wtf why cant I get any help.
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  • Captive Bread:
    I'm afraid this is the largest and most active community for this kind of information, probably on the entire internet. That said, we are still small overall. We can't help you all of the time. We do offer you support and have answered your questions in the past so I feel it's very impolite to lose patience with us.
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  • Captive Bread:
    Second of all, was you who said you wild caught your salamander? And had Authorities threaten to retrieve it from you?
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  • Captive Bread:
    Third of all, assuming thats the case, no one seems to want to face the reality that these animals come from climates and microenvironments where they need to be kept cool. If you can't hack, then release it where you pulled it from.
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  • FragileCorpse:
    he was dying outside. SO SORRY i was nice enough to save him. can i even release him in wetaher thats 40 degree celcius? will he not just die outside because he cant dig through the hard ground?
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  • FragileCorpse:
    The ONLY reason I spent 500 dollars on this thing was to keep him alive. thats IT. He was completely dry with cracked skin and couldnt walk and I nursed him back to health. Now I should just throw him outside on the hard baked ground where I found him? in my driveway? Really dude?
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  • FragileCorpse:
    I am losing patienc ebecause I care. Because I cant get any answers in any length of time that will actually benefit him. He'll only eat potato bugs, I just want him to have good rest of his life. Thats IT. So dont act like I went out an dillegally trapped some poor salamander out of the wild for fun cuz I wanted one.
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  • FragileCorpse:
    I am very sure he was just trying to pass by, because he certainly cant dig ANYWHERE in the soil ANYWHERE near where I live. So I cannot just release him in 40 degree celcius on the super hard baked ground where theres no shelter and no food and now ater to be seen for miles. I dont see how that wioll help him at all.
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  • John:
    @FragileCorpse, Watch your language please.
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  • FragileCorpse:
    What did I say sorry? What word?
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  • FragileCorpse:
    Sorry youre going to have to explain to me john becaue Ive reread what I wrote here and Im not seeing it,
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  • FragileCorpse:
    Ill certainly apologize for using it, but to not use it I need to know what it is is all.
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    Hello all
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    What's the night shift looking like
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  • Captive Bread:
    Lots of contemplating life for me. What about you?
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  • ShawnJPN:
    Same thoughts reduced to bytes on a website
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    ShawnJPN: Same thoughts reduced to bytes on a website +1
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