kiathepooch
Member
There was someone who posted in the gallery about keeping their axolotls on gravel-which when they explained turned out to be because their previous axolotls had died from sand impaction?
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Is sand safe?
- Thread starter xxianxx
- Start date
xxianxx
Well-known member
I covered this in an earlier post in this thread, my argument is by feeding pellets directly onto sand we are overexposing the axolotls to an extent that would not occur in the wild.
yellowpebble
New member
i think this is apropriate!
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...ning-about-tahitian-moon-sand.html#post312845
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...ning-about-tahitian-moon-sand.html#post312845
ACEPHONECHIC
New member
i think with Axies a bare bottom tank is safest. Why is sand used we have to ask is it to make it look nicer for the owner, to hide any axie poo, or is it benifical for the axie. I cannot see why take the risk if no long term effect is known.
They must get alot of soil in take from the worms they consume as I notice what comes out the other end seems to have a soil texture.
Come experts where are the answers.
They must get alot of soil in take from the worms they consume as I notice what comes out the other end seems to have a soil texture.
Come experts where are the answers.
MereB
New member
That axie died a a result of sharp man made sand making a hole in the tubing NOT from a build up of sand causing impaction.
For the record that was the ONLY bit of TMS in the axie there was none in any other part of it's digestive tract and I know they swallow it with their pellets because they pooped it out all the time too.
You must, MUST bare in mind that Tahitian moon is NOT a naturally occurring form of sand and has many sharp edges. Sands like play sand are VERY different and should NOT be compared to TMS.
It must also be said that the usual dogmatic principal for sand size here is a max of about 1mm. Those larger pcs, according even to the bag, should not have been in there.
Very new to axolotls and am going through threads on the forum to learn as much as we can....
I noted the previous post about bare-bottom tanks being safest. This is what we are currently doing with ours. Is there truth to bare-bottom tanks stressing axolotls in the long term? Is that why most people, including very experienced keepers, using substrate?
What are your thoughts on slate tiles versus sand versus bare bottom?
I noted the previous post about bare-bottom tanks being safest. This is what we are currently doing with ours. Is there truth to bare-bottom tanks stressing axolotls in the long term? Is that why most people, including very experienced keepers, using substrate?
What are your thoughts on slate tiles versus sand versus bare bottom?
xxianxx
Well-known member
Sand or bare bottomed is down to choice really, I know a number of experienced people who purely use bare bottomed set ups. Some people use a mix of setups, my young axolotls get a bare bottomed tank whilst the large juvies and adults get sand. Slate is acceptable but needs siliconing to the aquarium floor to prevent a build up of debris, if you choose the bare bottomed option make sure you wipe the bottom to remove the bacterial/crud build up.
axiekeeper
New member
After a bad experience with some black beauty sand (obviously not natural sand) i keep juvies on barebottom and when larger i do keep witb a fine natural sand but built a very nice feeding dish where all pellets are consumed. I also hand feed krill cause its fun. I Would be worried about them constantly eating pellets off the sand, it is unnatural circumstance.
I found sand to be the best substrate because axies can swollow it and pass it without issues. The only problem is its difficult to clean and you may find it needs to settle as it can make the water merky. So you will need to wash it really well before you use it. Also sand has tiny stones and all through it so it might be a good idea for you to strain it first just to be safe. I don't use substrate anymore I found sand to hard to maintain myself and not worth the trouble but its your call
jane1187
New member
Just to add my two-pence worth after this thread has been dug out of the dark.
In reptile keeping keeping on sand is frowned upon by many as continual sand ingestion leads to the formation of a sort of cement in the gut, which can lead to death if surgery is not performed to remove it. As ian has mentioned in his original post sand can remain in the digestive tract for a long time. I have seen images of autopsy where sand has been removed from the tract post-mortem, with the sand being blamed for the animal's death.
I see no reason why axolotls wouldn't suffer the same continual build up of sand in the digestive tract.
In my opinion, there is no reason not to use sand, but use it cautiously. I use sand for one of my axolotls, but I feed him whole worms direct from tweasers so there is minimal sand ingestion, and I never find sand in his poo. He also knows not to go around the bottom looking for food, as it is rarely there. For those feeding bloodworm or whole/chopped worms on the bottom of the tank I recommend a bare bottomed tank as a lot of sand will be eaten.
Just think about the way you feed your animal and make a decision based on that.
In reptile keeping keeping on sand is frowned upon by many as continual sand ingestion leads to the formation of a sort of cement in the gut, which can lead to death if surgery is not performed to remove it. As ian has mentioned in his original post sand can remain in the digestive tract for a long time. I have seen images of autopsy where sand has been removed from the tract post-mortem, with the sand being blamed for the animal's death.
I see no reason why axolotls wouldn't suffer the same continual build up of sand in the digestive tract.
In my opinion, there is no reason not to use sand, but use it cautiously. I use sand for one of my axolotls, but I feed him whole worms direct from tweasers so there is minimal sand ingestion, and I never find sand in his poo. He also knows not to go around the bottom looking for food, as it is rarely there. For those feeding bloodworm or whole/chopped worms on the bottom of the tank I recommend a bare bottomed tank as a lot of sand will be eaten.
Just think about the way you feed your animal and make a decision based on that.
xxianxx
Well-known member
Nice to see its not just me with a fear of sand lol
Neil C
Member
I haven't really been following this thread but I've read through it and thought I'd add my experiences. I kept axolotls on small pea gravel for about 6 years, whilst living in the UK, and never experienced any problems. Sure the axolotls would eat a lot of gravel but it always seemed to pass out of them ok. I had never heard of the compaction problems until fairly recently.
I don't know what is it about axolotls but most of them seem to very actively consume either gravel or sand. This seems to occur even when they are hand fed and are not fed on the substrate. I guess they might suck up substrate if they detect the slight smell of food on it but I've thought for a long time that there is probably an ulterior motive. Reason that I can think of but have no way of proving are:-
1. Aiding digestion (as already mentioned by another poster).
2. Buoyancy regulation, my axolotls kept on pea gravel never floated.
3. Possibly to absorb minerals.
4. Possibly to dislodge internal parasites.
I had an experience where I kept an axolotl for a long time in a bare bottomed tank and during a tank reshuffle I popped it into a tank with sand substrate for no more than about 5 minutes. On returning it to a bare bottomed tank it then proceeded to produce sand in it's waste for about the next month. It must have literally just wolfed down as much as it could while it was it there. I'm convinced that they consume it far more than would occur through accidental ingestion.
It seems that axolotls grow and flourish without substrate in their diet so maybe it goes back to something that was either present or lacking during their evolution in the Mexican lakes.
I'm of the opinion that small round pea gravel and fine sand are safe. I think problems arise when large or uneven substrate is used and this causes a blockage. Man made substrates may also be unsuitable. I currently keep all my axolotls in substrate free tanks but this is only for ease of cleaning.
These are just my views and I guess with substrate if you have any doubts then leave it out.
Regards Neil
I don't know what is it about axolotls but most of them seem to very actively consume either gravel or sand. This seems to occur even when they are hand fed and are not fed on the substrate. I guess they might suck up substrate if they detect the slight smell of food on it but I've thought for a long time that there is probably an ulterior motive. Reason that I can think of but have no way of proving are:-
1. Aiding digestion (as already mentioned by another poster).
2. Buoyancy regulation, my axolotls kept on pea gravel never floated.
3. Possibly to absorb minerals.
4. Possibly to dislodge internal parasites.
I had an experience where I kept an axolotl for a long time in a bare bottomed tank and during a tank reshuffle I popped it into a tank with sand substrate for no more than about 5 minutes. On returning it to a bare bottomed tank it then proceeded to produce sand in it's waste for about the next month. It must have literally just wolfed down as much as it could while it was it there. I'm convinced that they consume it far more than would occur through accidental ingestion.
It seems that axolotls grow and flourish without substrate in their diet so maybe it goes back to something that was either present or lacking during their evolution in the Mexican lakes.
I'm of the opinion that small round pea gravel and fine sand are safe. I think problems arise when large or uneven substrate is used and this causes a blockage. Man made substrates may also be unsuitable. I currently keep all my axolotls in substrate free tanks but this is only for ease of cleaning.
These are just my views and I guess with substrate if you have any doubts then leave it out.
Regards Neil
I keep Godric on sand, but I never put his food on the sand or allow him to eat off of it.
His food is always closer to the surface of the water; I danger the worms from the surface (or put him into a separate tub where there is no sad) and his feeder fish usually try to hide in the plants at the top of the water level.
I've never noticed any sand in his excrement.
His food is always closer to the surface of the water; I danger the worms from the surface (or put him into a separate tub where there is no sad) and his feeder fish usually try to hide in the plants at the top of the water level.
I've never noticed any sand in his excrement.
I'm glad this thread has popped up again... Just recently I've seen a lot of 'experts' on Facebook groups/forums condemning sand and declaring that it WILL kill an axolotl. One 'expert' told me that in the wild axolotls eat only from the surface of the water and that in the wild they would never accidently consume sand/mud etc, which I found quite amusing. Apart from the odd 'sand-guzzler' I've never heard of any axolotl becoming ill from sand, and I've always used it in the belief that it is the safest substrate to use. It would be interesting to hear from some people who have perhaps had a problem with sand, but most people who post about sand being unacceptable seem to have no evidence to support their claims, or are unwilling to share it.
DragonRider
New member
I am wondering, if sand cannot be passed safely, is there another option to use as a substrate that is safer than sand as opposed to just having a bare bottom? And if you do use a bare bottom tank, in terms of enrichment is that really ideal for them? Thanks guys!:happy:
Nemesea
New member
If you don't want to use sand or have a bare bottom, what about using something like: Juwel Aquarium Backgrounds | Charterhouse Aquatics
But not as a background have it on the bottom (a mate has done it with his tank and with his vivarium)
I use sand in the new tank and i haven't had any trouble with axle yet.
(cleaning its a pain as the vac takes up a lot of sand (But it could just be me not been use to using sand)
But not as a background have it on the bottom (a mate has done it with his tank and with his vivarium)
I use sand in the new tank and i haven't had any trouble with axle yet.
(cleaning its a pain as the vac takes up a lot of sand (But it could just be me not been use to using sand)
jane1187
New member
As I've posted previously, all of my information, and most of the people who I hear condemning sand are reptile keepers. I've not yet heard of many aquatic fish or amphibian keepers condemning sand though...
In reptiles especially, the frequent consumption of sand can have disasterous consequences. In herbivorous lizards and chelonians in particular sand can be frequently ingested if food is not delivered in a food dish. It cloggs up the intestines before it has a chance to pass through, forming a kind of cement in the stomach and lower intestinal tracts.
Though I have not heard of it yet in an axolotl I see no reason why, if an axolotl was to frequently ingest sand in sufficient quantity that it too could start to clogg the digestive system. Don't forget, axolotl poop is moist, whereas the poop of many reptiles is drier, and so sand is not easily passed by them as it is with axolotls.
I don't know if anyone is really suggesting sand is as bad as gravel for causing blockages, but it is worth considering being careful how much your axolotl consumes along with its food.
Also, not there is not really many alternatives to sand as a substrate. It's pretty much bare bottom, gravel or sand. Thoserock wall type things are OK but uneaten food and other debris can gather beneath them. The other alternative is pond mud.
In reptiles especially, the frequent consumption of sand can have disasterous consequences. In herbivorous lizards and chelonians in particular sand can be frequently ingested if food is not delivered in a food dish. It cloggs up the intestines before it has a chance to pass through, forming a kind of cement in the stomach and lower intestinal tracts.
Though I have not heard of it yet in an axolotl I see no reason why, if an axolotl was to frequently ingest sand in sufficient quantity that it too could start to clogg the digestive system. Don't forget, axolotl poop is moist, whereas the poop of many reptiles is drier, and so sand is not easily passed by them as it is with axolotls.
I don't know if anyone is really suggesting sand is as bad as gravel for causing blockages, but it is worth considering being careful how much your axolotl consumes along with its food.
Also, not there is not really many alternatives to sand as a substrate. It's pretty much bare bottom, gravel or sand. Thoserock wall type things are OK but uneaten food and other debris can gather beneath them. The other alternative is pond mud.
Having watched my two axolotls eat - one is a bucket mouth & often misses the worm completely taking in a great scoop of Playsand then expelling it from everywhere like a sneeze! The other axolotl is a little more coordinated & doesn't get as much sand. I'm also finding that keeping the sand clean (OCD clean) is a lot more difficult than gravel in our tropical fish tank.
I've seen quite a few pics on here about using slate as an option for tank floor & silicone sealing it to the floor would seem the perfect option.
Are there downsides to using slate or any other tiles for that matter - I use a lot of tiles in my work & see beautiful terracotta base tiles with high temp fired glaze that are satin or matt finish & could be quite natural looking? If they were going to be sealed to the tank floor with aquarium safe silicone, could there be any dangers? (Apart from making a tank even heavier to move
lol)
Just 1am wondering
<3 >o_o< <3
I've seen quite a few pics on here about using slate as an option for tank floor & silicone sealing it to the floor would seem the perfect option.
Are there downsides to using slate or any other tiles for that matter - I use a lot of tiles in my work & see beautiful terracotta base tiles with high temp fired glaze that are satin or matt finish & could be quite natural looking? If they were going to be sealed to the tank floor with aquarium safe silicone, could there be any dangers? (Apart from making a tank even heavier to move
lol)Just 1am wondering
<3 >o_o< <3
Nemesea
New member
Both of my mates tank/ vivarium work fine, as he has sealed all the edges so no food can get under them, (I was gonna do it with mine but decided not to, but I may do it in time as the sand level is slowly dropping)
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I'm not disputing whether sand is good or bad for axie health (I've heard it can be more damaging for their insides than the average gravel because it's sharp, even the "soft" sand is sharper than the edges of most gravel. If it could build up over months or years that's also a mark against sand) but I did want to mention that several people have said "In the wild they would be on sand anyway" (or something similar) and I just wanted to point out that most lakes have a mud bottom, not sand. Dirt is far smaller than the sand you usually see in aquariums so maybe axolotl's are able to pass the mud better.