Its getting very confusing

P

peter

Guest
Hi guys,
First time writer.
I have been reading Q’a and A’s on this forum for a while and have found it to be far better than anything I have found on the web.
Nothing like getting answers from people with first hand experience in these matters.
Having said that, I need some sound advice with looking after my “band of 4”

I have 4 axies, 2 of them I have had for about 1 year. The latest 2, I have had about 2 weeks. That is: Pablo, Concietta, Tia and Karli.
We weren’t really looking for new axies but we saw a little nest of axies at the aquarium and couldn’t walk away.
Over the last week, Karli, one of the 2 newies did not taken food for 4 days and has not eaten today either.
She is still active but shows no interest in food.
Karli’s gills are flicking a couple of times a minutes, I cannot find any reference to indicate the cause of the flicking. The others are also gill flicking but not as frequent as Karli.

Karli shows signs of a fluffy white fungal infection on her gill. I am treating this with Pimafix and Melafix.
I have removed the carbon bag in the filter whilst I do this for the recommended 7 days.
Is there a better fungal treatment and from where can I get it?

It seems that every time I go to the aquarium, I am told I need yet another thing in the tank.
Yesterdays visit, to originally get Pimafix for the fungal infection, resulted in getting an ammonia removal kit/bag as well as ammonia removing water ager.
Beats me why they just don’t tell you this is what you need in the first place.
He also suggested I buy an ammonia measuring kit. Is using an ammonia absorbing carbon bag as well as water ager that removes ammonia, sufficient?
What else would I be doing if high ammonia were present?

I am also using a Bio-Boost solution (the “good” bacteria) to break down nitrates and prevent ammonia.

I don’t mind getting “products” for my axies as long as they actually are necessary and beneficial.

My tank is a 140 litre, aerated, external filter (300Litre per hour) around 22 to 24 degree temp. a couple of hiddie logs, rocks, plants. The 2 older ones have been doing very well and had even had a crack at breeding, well they did OK, it was I that had no end of trouble keeping the little things alive, consequently by day 20 they had all eventually died.

My axies, are fed every second day; either beef heart, tubifex worms, fish meal, 1 x sliver of prime steak, sometimes blood worms (hard to get in their mouth) and sometimes shrimp brine (very hard to get in their mouth).
The water is generally very clear but since the last exchange of water, the water is not crystal clear. Could this be the reason why gill flicking is happening?

So as you can see, I need some sound advice in keeping my “band of 4” healthy as I have become extremely attached to my axies and spend hours just looking at them.


Peter
 
Hi Peter, welcome to the group. We tend to advise salt baths in the first instance for fungal infections. 2-3 baths per day for 10 mins each. If that doesn't appear to take effect then we consider other things like myaxin/protozin and a couple of others.

Even with your ammo-lock (or similar) it's worth invest in water testing kits for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. A 5 in one ain't so bad and will also test hardness.

On food try some earthworms (bait shops are good sources), try a little less beef heart (most of us would say) and try also some trout or salmon pellets. A big bag is cheap and lasts a long time.

Gill flicking is typically to move water across the gills, your water is a little warmer than most desirable and will be stressing them slightly.

If your water is a bit cloudy it could be down to yeast bloom, substrate in suspension or many other things we would need to know a little more about your set -up.

Check out some of the recent threads in the axie forum and of course www.axolotl.org
 
thanks Mikki.

I now have the recipe from the ax site. I always place a scoop of salt in the water (proportional to the amount exchanged only) in the tank at the end of exchange, along with water ager, stress coat, I change the filter sponge about every 2 months, the carbon filter bag about every 2 months (not at the same time as the sponge), also, in the filter compartment, I have a layer of (what the aquarium guy called) "living rocks" to allow for the good bacteria to attach and establish, along with small clay pellet/balls for the same reason. These just get a rinse in clean water at water exchange time as they trap a lot of waste.
Also at water exchange, I will add "good" bacteria solution.
I syphon through the tanks layer of very small pebbles to remove any waste material,(very small pebbles because my first axie would eat the big ones; no kidding they were almost as big as the nail on your thumb and it took weeks before he would pass them thru). I also remove any plants and hiddie logs for a simple clean up of any obvious matter.
At the end, I adjust the Ph to 7.
Is there anything that is obviously wrong they I should or shouldn't be doing?

As for earth worms, I am considering setting up an earthworm farm, but should I be concerned about any garden bacteria or ? parasites or something else that could harm my axies? or are the bait shop earth worms just as good?

As for food pellets, I will be on the looking around at pet stores today. Are turtle pellets suitable (not sure what's in them).

Peter.
 
Hi Peter,

You seem to be very thorough. WTG.

I buy my earthworms from a bait shop I have been using sometime and have had no problems whatsoever. But take note some sources aren't as good as others and there is a risk that you could introduce a parasite or infection.

I think Turtles are often fed Reptomin sticks. Axies will eat them but, because they float I assume, they might not be keen. Plus I find they go fungal if left in the tank more than 24 hours. I don't use them now but keep a small packet or reptomin for emergencies in case I run short of pellets or worms. Simply remember a good variety of food is important to ensure that they get all the bits and bobs the body requires. ]
 
Thanks Mikki,

the fungal infection is spreading to all my axies so I bathed all the axies in the salt solution twice today so hopefully things will improve from here.

I made some inquiries re: live worms and was asked if I wanted wax worms. What the??
Have you used wax worms before?
Do you use a feeder bag or feeder funnel for feeding your guys earthworms? The intention is that the axies will pull the worms out of the sieve hole in the funnel. This is information given to me by the aquarium kid.
I don't think he has really ever fed axies, mine need to have their food 1cm from the front of their face before they eat, so I doubt placing a bunch of worms in a sieve would work as intended.
I also asked about ammonia kits and to cut a long discussion short, I was told it was better to measure carbon levels (or words to that affect), this is apparently a better indicator if water quality is poor or becoming poor and will indicate this to you well before the axir gets or becomes ill, hence, my original post of "it's getting very confusing".
Has anyone measure carbon levels.
What are the thing that are essential to be measured AND what do you do when eg ammonia is up or Nitrate is up etc.

Peter.
 
You want earth worms. You will not need a feeding funnel or bag those are for feeding fish wax worms and the like. Just drop the night crawlers in or hand them to the axolotl.

There are test kits for fresh water aquariums that contain several solutions for testing freshwater pH, high range pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I got one at bigalsonline.com for like $13. It is Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit.

Nutrafin makes a Master Lab Kit that tests for ammonia, calcium, nitrate, phosphate, nitrite, ph, iron, carbonate hardness, and general hardness. It is for fresh and salt water and costs $40. Which is kind of over kill for fresh water tanks.

I test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate a couple times a month. My pH is always off the scale so I test it perhaps once a month (the water here is naturally that way).

Once my tanks all cycled the testing has never shown any problems in my aquariums. On new tanks if there was a problem it was usually with ammonia and I added the ammonia absorbing carbon mix to the filter and did partial water changes until the kit tested ammonia at Zero. I also use nitra-zorb bags on new set ups for the first 3 months.
(Composed of natural and synthetic ion-exchange resins in a pouch. Selectively removes nitrite, ammonia, and also nitrate. Completely rechargeable. Contains no phosphate. For freshwater aquariums only.)

You shouldn't need to be chemist to keep axolotls
happy.gif
And you shouldn't have to buy out the pet store.
 
Well Cynthia has covered most of it.

Can you keep your axies in individual containers while you get through this fungal infection? It doesn't have to be a full tank set up just a temporary home.

Yep axies like wax worms. But again not a constant diet of the same food. I hold food in front of axies nose. Chopstix are useful and keep ur shirt sleeves dry too
happy.gif
 
Just adding to what Cynthia has already said...
If your tank is cycled Peter, there's no reason to be adding products that claim to remove ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. None of these actually REMOVE the toxins, they only bind them into non-toxic forms. The only way you'll get them out from that point on is by doing regular water changes with fresh water to dilute the nasty stuff in the old water. Because they only detoxify, most of these products will cause false positive readings in your home test kits, so you don't have any way of telling whether there is an ammonia problem, or it's just the stuff you've added. A better (and cheaper!) way to go is just to let "nature" take care of things and leave the nitrifying bacteria to do their job. Let the bugs take care of the ammonia and nitrite, and your water changes will remove any excess nitrAtes. Live plants will also feed on these nutrients. Then if you ever do encounter problems in your tank like the fungus you're dealing with, you won't have to worry about the accuracy of your kits when you test the water.

Most stores are only out to make money and will tell you you NEED a lot of junk that's totally unnecessary. Next time you're in, ask how the bacteria solution they're selling you is shipped- several stores I've been to receive these products frozen. I could be wrong, but I don't think live bacteria should be frozen... If you're still seeing ammonia in your tank, the bacterial cultures you've been given are bogus. To my knowledge, the ONLY instant-cycle product available that actually contains live bacteria is Bio-Spira. It comes in both fresh and saltwater solutions.

Also, what is your pH before you alter it to 7.0? If it's within range of what's acceptable for axolotls, there might be no reason to change your pH at all. Perfect neutral isn't always needed.
 
Hi guys,
thanks for your responses.
i went back to the aquarium and had a very long talk with the owner. he was very thorough and discussed everything from, gravel, food, size of tank, filter type, what's in the filter etc, aeration, number of axies, at what stage were they OK and at what stage did they go off, and what have i done in the meantime. he concluded that my original 2 axies were Ok as there was sufficient bacteria to maintain them, the introduction of another 2 axies lead to a ammonia spike die to insufficient bacteria.
consequently i have purchased a kit for pH, Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and Carbon hardness.
all parameters are good.
pH around 7.2
Ammonia; zero ppm
NitrITE; zero ppm
NitrATE; less that 10ppm
Carbon hardness; approx 10ppm
the suggestion was to bump/keep the pH to 7.2-7.3.

unfortunately, despite the salt baths, melafix, pimafix and fungal treatment, the gills on all 4 are rapidly diminishing.
the one that went off it's food is now at about day 10 and has only eaten once in that time (about 5 days ago).
one of the other is thrashing around a bit and trying to claw at her gills so i'm assuming that her gills are either painful or itchy (can this occur).
3 of the axies have eaten well but one continues to get thinner.

any suggestions??
would different food eg mealworms or wax worms be more enticing?


Peter
 
Peter - I have found that adding buffers to lower pH are quite frustrating and can be dangerous to the tanks inhabitants. I have no experience with trying to raise the pH but I have a feeling they might be similar.

My pH is very high here and for a while I experimented with lowering the pH so I could try and encourage some fish to breed.

I set up a small tank (empty no fish) and experimented with different products to lower pH. While on initial testing after adding the products the pH would be lower, within 24 hours the pH was right back up where it was before. This went on for over 30 days and over all I only lowered the pH a fraction. Swinging the pH up and down is not good and can lead to tanks "crashing" causing unsafe conditions for the tanks inhabitants.

Should you decide to enter into that adventure I suggest you use an empty tank to experiment on first and test two or 3 times through out the day to see where all you levels are. I hope you have better luck than I did.

I would not feed meal worms, I have no experience with wax worms. I would offer them night crawler sections and if you have them, the soft salmon pellets.

Make sure you don't over salt them while salt bathing. Too much salt can burn an axolotls gills too.
 
Hi guys,

need you expert help again.

there is a section on "water hardness and dissolved salts" in the Axolotl sister site by John P. Clare; re; Holtfreter's Solution

John mentions making a modification to the original solution,,,,,,,,,,,,

<font color="0000ff"><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica"></font>"I have also used another modified Holtfreter's mix at 50% concentration. The modification is that I added MgSO4 in the same weight as NaHCO3 instead of replacing NaHCO3 as done by Indiana University Axolotl Colony"</font>}}

does this mean that John's solution of;
1gm NaCl,
0.1gms MgSO4.7H2O,
0.1gms NaHCO3
should be made up (PER LITRE) and then used as a 50% solution for the tank) This would in effect decrease the NaCl concentration by half.

I have, and am currently using 1 gm per litre.

The original Holtrefeter's solution uses (amongst other ingredients), 3.6 gms Nacl per liter which when used at the suggested 40 to 50% concentration brings it back to an approx 1gm NaCl conc. (actually 1.44gms).

I like John's recipe because it's easier to get my hands on salt, epsom salts, and baking soda but I don't know whether I should be using it as is per litre or as a 50% solution.

Peter.
 
Me again, thought i'd better add a couple of pics of my band of 4. It's not often that I can see them all in the same corner of the tank so I took the opportunity to snap them.

I am still struggling with fungus hence why I want to make changes to the water constituents.
You know, it actually helps to read the salt bath instructions, I was using 2-3 teaspoons per 2 litres of water, not per litre.
I am also drawing a blank in finding Furan-2 in Sydney, I have asked about 6 aquariums but no luck.

Peter

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<font size="-2">(Mod (Tim) note: I added spaces between pics so this thread can be viewed on a small screen)</font>

(Message edited by tj on November 15, 2005)
 
Peter,

Well done with those axies... VERY nice colours!

Sorry but I cant help you with the salt baths, I have never had to do one.
 
Ok on the salt baths thing you don't need the magnesium sulphate and sodium bicarb. Just plain ordinary NaCl will do.

Some labs keep there animals in Holtfreters or similar all year long.

Medium Components (100% per 1 litre of Water)

Holtrefeter's is:
NaCl, 3.46g
KCl, 0.05g
CaCl2, 0.1g
NaHCO3, 0.2g

Therefore a 50% solution would have 1.7g of NaCl per litre. A 100L tank dosed to 50% would require 170g of salt...seems a lot when you get down to it (similar to a standard pack of aqaurium salt...surprise surprise). I have tried modified Holtfreters and Steinberg solutions for a while and noticed no appreciable difference in well being of my tank or axies and gave up on them.

But a salt bath is easy: 2-3 teaspoons per litre of water water. So if the tub or bucket you use holds 3 Litres then add 6-9 teaspoons.
 
Hi Guys,

thanks for the response. I just had to have the 2 little ones when I saw them, I hadn't seem colours like them before and they just stood out from the white ones.

another question re addition of salt.
taking into account of evaporation of tank water, is it possible to end up with high salinity. (talking over say a 12 month period).

If every time i replace say approx 3 buckets of tank water weekly (about 27 litres from a 140 litre tank)and add 30gms of NaCl back into the replacement water probably about 30 litres of water (due to initial evaporation), i'm guessing that long term, the salinity would be high than should be?

Also, Mikki are you currently only using NaCl at a rate of 1.7gms per litre??

peter
 
Hi Peter,

I'll happily defer to the more experienced owners on this, but when first starting out I read that over-oxygenated water can irritate axolotls, and I notice from the photos (your axies look lovely, by the way) that your aerator is quite active (we don't use an aerator, but our water is a bit cooler than yours...) - maybe this is contributing to the gill-scratching you've been seeing? Also, might a reduction in gill size reflect the high availability of oxygen in the water?

Would anyone here with more experience like to comment?
 
Hi again, another message from the sick bed...lol.

Peter given that you would be carrying out 20% water changes every week or so. The salinity shouldn't rise significantly at all. But evapouration shouldn't be significant either, if you have a lid fitted and don't need to carry out a few tricks to keep the temperature down.

If you don't add any salt at all one time then you know your on the lower limits of concentration. I no longer add salt I found no benefit either way to my axies.

Super-saturating the water with oxygen is quite hard to achieve at normal temps and pressures so I wouldn't consider it a problem with most tank set-ups. How about an update on the ill scratching and eating habits?
 
Hi Guys,

i had to go to extremes to stop the fungus problem. i ended up with a fridge full of ax's in their individual containers.
they got 3 salt baths per day, i made fresh salt bath solution and kept it in the fridge so it was the same temp as their fridge "tank" water otherwise going from fridge temp to room temp salt baths and back into fridge temps would have surely gone bad.

after a week of the above, the fungus seemed to have subsided and now it's day 4 back in the main tank and they have eaten again and seem to be a bit more receptive to my "its food time" tapping on the lid.

i don't know if its the fridge treatment, salt baths, modified salt solution, or me becoming insane and cleaning every plastic plant, log, rock with a concentrated salt solution or vacuming every speck of gravel, or all of the above, that has made a difference, but i'm a lot happier with the water appearance and quality and most importantly, the little beasts.

one thing i did find and i don't know if it's coincidental is that i took the live plants out of the tank and the pH has returned back to normal (7.0-7.4).
the pH was continually around 6.2-6.4 with the plants in it.
the aquarium guy told me that if can fluctuate with live plants that was some serious flucuating for 2 small plants. has anyone else found this problem with live plants?

no gill scratching seen in the last 4 days.

peter
 
If the plants don't start to take root they do die slowly and then slowly rot. None of which is good for your water quality.

I maintain one tank with live plants and the other with plastic. It took a few weeks of patience but the live plants did root and the water levels do even out. I ended up burying half a length of eleodea (or what ever plant) under slate section so the little beggars didn't dig them out before they could get a foothold.

Remove nay broken branches or free-floating pieces each day.
 
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