Juvenile C. orientalis

[vistajpdf]

Hi all,

I know this is very premature as my oldest morphs are only a couple of months old, but I was wondering when they are considered stable enough to find homes for? Also, how do you know when it's time to return them to the water? I have about 30 morphs and had my first fatality the other day. It looked very swollen, maybe bloated? I have to think we're doing OK unless they start dropping like flies since one passed on. I don't know when the most crucial time is during this morphing/juvenile stage - perhaps it's just beginning?

I'm still not convinced any have eaten, though I'm sure they have to have eaten by nowm especially my original four. I have to replace springtails and fruit flies regularly and I "think" the bugs escaping is not the reason! So, despite them not eating in front of me, and seeing some growth in the little ones, I have to assume they are doing well.

My sons began a Wild Over Wildlife (WOW!) club and the first meeting was Friday night. We discussed reptiles as I took the children on a sea turtle hatchling release that evening. I showed them the newts in their varying stages of development and to point out that they are not lizards or reptiles at all. Anyway, a number of the children are interested in the newts as pets and most of this group is pretty smart, so I don't have a lot of reservations about handing them over. I will have an entire meeting devoted to amphibians (It's called Straight A's: Athletes Applaud Amphibian Ark and we'll have a fundraiser to benefit Amp. Ark.) But, I wanted to know when it would be safe to relocate the juveniles or if I should wait for them to become aquatic again.

Thanks,
Dana

 

[Azhael]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Well, it can take from 1-3 years for them to be able to go back to water...the fastest growing ones will almost certainly take around a year.
I personally would very wary of giving small morphs to kids....they are considered hard, and i definitely think it´s not the best idea. Not just for the poor morphs, but also for the kids. Even with help, it´s likely they won´t succeed in raising them, and for a kid that can be very disheartening.
I´m not saying it´s impossible, obviously...but as i said, they are not an easy species to raise, even for somewhat experienced keepers, let alone for beginners.

And after my personal observation xD, i hate to say that in my experience, the morphs can be given away as soon as they are eating well. Since you don´t know if they are(although a full tummy is all the signs you need), then i´d say it would be a good idea to wait until they are at least 4cm long. It may take a while, but with that size they are substantially more robust than newly morphed ones. That gives them a better chance to stand the process of adjusting to the new environment. you can probably give them away as soon as they morph...but pesonally i think that´s risky...

 

[vistajpdf]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Yeah, I was afraid of that. These kids are elementary school kids and while many of the children are wonderful examples of the next generation of conservationists, only a handful of the parents are as committed. So, if the child says they need to keep the A/C on for the newts, I'm not sure how many parents will listen...I do have one family that has raised every kind of animal, so they would be on the top of my list, but not until 1 year post-morphing or thereabouts, at least is safest. I feel so committed to these little guys - I'd be devastated to hear that they died a week after new ownership.

Tuesday, I'm going through the tanks again and resize the morphs as the ages have gotten mixed. I need to start another tank - try to keep the number to about 10 per container. One container is much larger, but I worry the little ones won't be as aggressive to catch food. I still don't think they can eat the wax worms I had but I hope soon enough, they will.

The boys have retrieved a couple of morphs and I want them all to be with equal-sized siblings so there is no competition for food. I finally told my older son that the newts just have to remain in his brother's cooler room, much to his dismay. He wants them to do well and I just notice the temperature drop to chilly, regardless of the A/C setting in the middle son's room.

How do you know when they're ready to return to the water? I realize it's a year or more off, but I'm curious and couldn't find anything in the search department or Caudata Culture unless I missed it.

As always, I appreciate your help,
Dana

 

[Azhael]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Well, it´s complicated. My experience is very limited as i have only succeeded with one animal yet and it´s a male so, it was kind of obvious when it reached adulthood (he is with his parents now, a happy family n_n).
With males, when you notice sexual development(the cloaca becoming significantly larger) then it may be time to try an aquatic set-up and see what happens. With females it may be trickier, but i´d say that as a general rule, any C.orientalis larger than 5-5,5cm can be presented with the option of a water lifestyle so that it can decide. They have to be watched closely though, and have easy access to land, since they may drown. It´s easy to tell if a given individual is not ready though.

 

[vistajpdf]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Oh no! Of your 13 last year, only one made it? Or is he from a different year? Do you worry about him mating with his mother or I suppose that's not as dangerous as it can be with other animals?
Dana

 

[merk199]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Are you covering the top of the enclosures with vinyl window screen. Are you using sterilite type containers. I can't remember. Two layers is usually virtually fruit fly escape proof.

 

[Jennewt]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Good work with the WOW club and the fundraiser, Dana:happy:

The only way I can imagine that the kids could adopt the newtlets at this stage would be if you could teach a couple of the newtlets to hand-feed from a toothpick. Once they are reliably eating in this manner, I think kids could keep them fed using thawed bloodworms.

I make my tubs inescapable for the fruit flies by putting a layer of old cotton sheet between the tub and the lid.

I find that newts are usually ready for water based on size. The faster they grow, the sooner they'll be adaptable to water. For Japanese firebellies, it's around 2 - 2.5 inches, but they are a larger species than your orientalis.

Is there any chance you could get pinhead crickets, even occasionally? It's worth asking your local pet shops if they can special order them from their supplier. Other than worms, pinheads are the best "growth food" I've found for the little ones.

 

[Azhael]

Re: Juvenile C. Orientalis

Oh no! Of your 13 last year, only one made it? Or is he from a different year? Do you worry about him mating with his mother or I suppose that's not as dangerous as it can be with other animals?
Dana

Oh no, others made it too, but they were shipped to new homes, or are currently waiting for temps to drop to be shipped.
I´m not worried about them mating together, because it´s not a big deal for caudates...nevertheless, i doubt the young fella will mate this year. Planning into the future, i also hope to find some CB orientalis from a different source to mix with mine and keep genetics fresh, but that´s long term.

 

[vistajpdf]

OK then. I need a trip to Spain so I can bring you some fresh genes for the CB program!

To everyone else, I've been using paper towels and hand towels under the sterilite lid to prevent escape of FFs and springs. The substrate is also plain white paper towels changed every other day, moistened. Some tanks have water bowls, some don't. I do lose some FFs to the water bowls.

Jen: I don't think I'd be comfortable just yet having the kids hand feed the little morphs. Even though they'd only have one, I'll wait for these animals to be lower maintenance. The adults are easy and as tedious as my "rounds" can be (add work 3 days/week, coaching sports and raising three young boys plus the rest of our animals), I'm not ready to take a chance with the newts. Thanks for your support in the WOW plans. The children are very excited. People truly will want to save what they love, love what they understand, and understand what they are taught, so I'm doing my best to educate.

Dana