"sally-
you must realize this far in life that if you stand up and express your opinion -especially when that opinion comes across to others as accusatory/condeming- then you MUST be willing to accept the rebuttal -that is only fair. it is a known contradiction that those who often want to 'share' their religion/opinions with others do not wish for those others to share their side...."
And you're saying that's so with me? I'm willing to get your point-of-view, that's why my initial post was a question.
"when you came to this site you probably came through the main page -if you note there is this 'mission statement' on the main page:
"Caudata.org's mission has been to facilitate the sharing of accurate information about newts and salamanders, with an emphasis on their maintenance in captivity.""
I came to this site through Google directly to the forum, i read several posts of people talking about collecting salamanders from the wild and putting them in aquariums and it saddened me. But i in no way think that everyone that posts here has bad intent.
"so to stand up and express your condemnation of hobbyists as 'selfish' is itself a selfish act -you should know that your statement is viewed as an attack upon those of us who keep them. if you really didnt intend for your statement to appear so -then realize it did"
If you feel you're being attacked or if you're offended, it's because you allow yourself to be.
"perhaps a little more diplomacy in your speech would go a long way in paving over the tension."
What tension? And i hope you realize that your reply to me sounds rather sarcastic. Is it intented to be?
"the title 'like?' also seems accusatory in a sort of purile valley girl way -this section is designated for help topics - it should have been presented in the 'general' section."
I'm sorry for the topic, i needed a title, i had a question, and a lot of people use the word "like" when asking a question, so it popped into my head. As far as the proper placement of my post goes; i was asking about salamanders in paticular and only had a couple of minutes of computer time, so i didn't have time to read through every section and find where exactly i should post. I figured; i have a question concerning salamanders and this the newt and salamander help topic, so that's why i posted here.
"i have however answered your questions, and your misquote of "humans used to be wild" is incorrect. i am supposing that by that point of view you are not an evolutionist-no matter (i DO however believe humans used to be wild)"
We both have our own opinions. You believe humans evolved from apes, i'm guessing, and that we are getting stronger in our species(which is what evolution is based on). I believe we have always been human and are DEvolving, getting weaker in our species. You believe animals should be kept captive, and in most cases, i don't. My opinion does not make me incorrect, nor does it make me correct. And since when is an opinion and accusation?
" - there is no denial that we are animals too- we perform many of the exact functions right down to the molecular level."
No there is no denial of that, but that does not mean that we were at one time apes. There are still primitive people living in the wild in the sense that they depend completely on nature like an animal, i myself am a lot like that; but animals act mostly by instinct and humans act mostly by intillect.
"you missed my point about plants -they are also "wild" (but probably also captive bred) -to keep them indoors or isolated from others of their kind is to stop them fulfilling their main function -to breed."
You're comparing animals with emotions with emotionless life which have the main purpose of providing us with food. One could argue that all things are made up of some form of life, but not all things have emotions.
"almost everything humans do is a selfish act-even altruism is a form of that since it is expected that if we do well for others they may return the favour someday."
That term is a bit generalized. Almost everything MOST humans do is selfish, yes...you're right...the world is very corrupted. If it wasn't, our beautiful forests and the creatures living within wouldn't be in harms way.}
"here is a question for you -where did you learn your first love of nature and animals? books and stuffed toys are not the same as zoo trips, field trips and pets. we need interaction"
Aren't most people just born inquisitive of nature. Most children love animals, that is why they go out into the woods and search for them. That is why they want pets. As a kid i wanted every kind of animal. But to see them caged up always made me sad, so i would let them raom free. Nature took it's course and killed a lot of them, of course, so i figured, ideally, it's best that i have no pets and just observe them from their natural habitats. I have never gained an interest by seeing animals in coptivity, though...especially zoos. Most zoos are only a prison for animals - that is my opinion.
"i dont see how you can find this idea foreign that if one cannot access the wilds that they would want to import it."
I don't find the idea foreign at all, i love being around animals, but there are humane ways of going about it, ideally keeping them in a like-environment. And, again, i'm not saying you're inhumane.
"there are a lot of people who cannot see nature in the wild - many many people dont even have back yards (me for one)- and many people are limited in their access to true nature."
Yes, and i am limited, too...all i have curently are memories. I wish looking into a terrarium satisfied my desire to be one with nature, but it doesn't. Is it any wonder i'm saddened? Are you not saddened by this, too?
"we live in an ever increasing urban sprawl, it is easy for me to understand why the hobby of terrarium keeping is much higher in europe -as they are living in higher urban areas -they desire more what they cannot have. it is a possibility that some caudates kept as pets someday may be the only representatives on the planet as their natural environment disappears or is destroyed."
This is the same with humans, though, as i've said. We need nature to survive just as much as nature needs us. You may see this satement as a contradiction, but it was actually my main point. I don't believe captivity is the answer. Obviously, we've led ourselves into captivity and it didn't work. People long for nature. Why not get out of the cities and go back to nature instead of bringing nature to us in artificial ways.....before it's too late. And God bless those of you who do.
"do not believe that any of our hands are clean -even yours - you probably travel by car on roads that fracture native habitats and migratory pathways, the house you live in may have been built on native breeding grounds, the fuel used to transport your breakfast cereal to the grocery store probably contains MTBE -a fuel additive that is very bad for aquatic systems as it can pollute a very large area even with just a teaspoon full. the water you use to bathe with is drawn from aquifers or redirected from rivers and is thus taken out of the natural flow -sure it is returned but in a deficit and not in as healthy a condition."
I don't think my hands are clean, but i do the best i can. I actually don't drive myself, i'm against cars as well and anything that pollutes the environment. When i buy food, i buy organic whenever possible. I apply this to every aspect of my life, it's not just about taking animals out of their natural habitats and confining them to small cages (which a lot of you don't do - i realize), i am concerned about life as a whole and i don't think of anything individually.
"again consider the alternative -if people didnt keep animals as pets to learn the value of how nature enriches us- where would we be? (not all people see it this way too - some feel threatened by nature)"
You will not be able to convince those who are threatened by nature or that care nothing about it just as i cannot convince you and you cannot convince me.
This is my opinion, i'm not condeming anyone, my main point WAS to get your point-of-view, i got it; you can't change my mind, i can't change yours, and please don't be offended by me....it's a little silly to be offended by a complete stranger.