Mixing species with the same natural habitat

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stavroske

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Steven De Craene
Hi all,

I know this might be an endless discussion with a lot of pro's and contra's. But still I would like to know what you guys think about mixing species that share the same natural habitats. When I had a pond at my parents garden a few years ago, it was populated with L. helveticus, L. vulgaris, and I. alpestris. It wasn't such a big pond and still they all bred very well. Now I was wondering why it wouldn't be possible mixing them in a large tank. In portugal there are ponds with T. marmoratus and P. waltl and so every country has it's own habitats with several species. Actually I think it's stupid saying that mixing should never be done and species should always be kept apart. As long as the tank is big enough for the capacity of salamanders you keep ánd the species share the same ponds in the wild without hybridizing, I really think it should not be any problem.
I'm really curious about you're opinions!

Kind regards,

Steven
 
You are right stavroske i agree in all you said. I have saw in portugal some T. marmoratus in small ponds in witch there were many frogs, toad tadpoles, L. bocai.
Also have seen L.boscai with C. lusitanica but never T.marmoratus with P. waltl but in fact it is very possible to get them animals together when they are not in stress. In conditions of stress i guess it might give soem problems but in normal conditions it should not give any problem.

Cheers
 
No discussion needed.

There is a sticky on this, a couple of pages on Caudata Culture and numerous threads (many of them recent) here. A bit of work with the forum search function will answer questions on both sides of this topic.

In short, "species mixing" with caudates is always a bad idea, even if they are from the same environment in nature. A pet enclosure is a completely different situation than in the wild and is not suitable for "mixing" of caudates..
 
The reason why not to is because they are in a confined space. You would have to have a tank, large enough that almost no one has or for some could never afford if you want to copy their habitat. Its hard to keep it perfect like nature does. But I see something like a 200gal + tank would work but costs $$$$ alot and isnt practical since almost any caudate can live in a $15 10gal and many can fit pairs or more in one. Plus a 200gal , even 100gal tank take up alot of room.

But I think mixing can be done properly if you have the space & $$$cash because you would need a large tank if you want no problems and a piece of nature . I just stick to my 10gal.
 
Hey Sludgemonkey, I agree there are a lot of threads about mixing. But they all contain mixing several species of the same family or mixing species of totally differend habitats. What I would like to know is about mixing newts of the same habitat.
My first "pond" was a 100L little pond wich housed I. alpestris and L. vulgaris without any probs. I actually don't think a 100L pond is that natural and still they bred a lot.
If it ain't possible mixing I. alpestris and L. vulgaris (for example), I would like to know why without the simple answer 'it's not smart' or 'you shouldn't mix any species".
 
You mustn't mistake thousands of years of evolutionary fine tuning with a recipe of your own making. Even if species were tolerant of each other and posed few risks I still would not mix them in captivity. For one (and there are many more), captive newts rarely face a natural feeding regime (being given a worm or cube of frozen bloodworm every other day is not natural) and this over time makes them aggressive during feeding. I certainly wouldn't want to see my Pleurodeles waltl and Triturus marmoratus together in a feeding frenzy and I could easily imagine a full grown I.alpestris rip a smaller lissotrion apart.

It's all about risk at the end of the day and species mixing carries risks. As the keeper it is your responsibility to provide optimum conditions for your pets. Anything that adds avoidable risk is a failing.
 
In addition to what has already been said, i would like to comment that in those cases where these species are sympatric, they most certainly don´t get perfectly along. Adults predate on eggs, larvae and juveniles of the other species. It´s also VERY common to find that a large percentage of the adults have damaged tails, missing fingers, etc. This is because there is agression. Granted, those damages can be caused by other creatures, like crayfish, too. Larger species do predate over smaller ones, as for example T.marmoratus and P.waltl do over L.boscai.
Just because they live in the same habitat, it doesn´t mean there isn´t any agression, predation, competition, etc.
Here in Spain, particularly in my area(because of the characteristics of the land), it´s very common to see L.boscai being relegated to small ponds for cattle, while, P.waltl inhabits larger cattle ponds, and T.marmoratus goes for temporary natural ponds.

Also, there is another risk, which is patogen exchange. If you were to house WC animals together (completely ilegal and inmoral), there is not knowing what they can carry. If the animals are CB, there´s still a big risk, because they may also carry patogens acquired in the collection of the breeder.

I´m a bit offended but your comment "Actually I think it's stupid saying that mixing should never be done". The risks of mixing have been VERY well explained, logically, and backed up by years and years of experience from countless hobbyists....and it´s all in the best interests of the animals.
So, in short, yes, you can certainly mix species as long as you don´t care about the consequences...
If what´s more important for you is to ensure the well-being and prosperity of your animals, instead of the visual value of a mixed colony, then you won´t assume unnecessary risks.
 
azhael said:
In addition to what has already been said, i would like to comment that in those cases where these species are sympatric, they most certainly don´t get perfectly along. Adults predate on eggs, larvae and juveniles of the other species. It´s also VERY common to find that a large percentage of the adults have damaged tails, missing fingers, etc. This is because there is agression. Granted, those damages can be caused by other creatures, like crayfish, too. Larger species do predate over smaller ones, as for example T.marmoratus and P.waltl do over L.boscai.
Just because they live in the same habitat, it doesn´t mean there isn´t any agression, predation, competition, etc.
Here in Spain, particularly in my area(because of the characteristics of the land), it´s very common to see L.boscai being relegated to small ponds for cattle, while, P.waltl inhabits larger cattle ponds, and T.marmoratus goes for temporary natural ponds.

Also, there is another risk, which is patogen exchange. If you were to house WC animals together (completely ilegal and inmoral), there is not knowing what they can carry. If the animals are CB, there´s still a big risk, because they may also carry patogens acquired in the collection of the breeder.

I´m a bit offended but your comment "Actually I think it's stupid saying that mixing should never be done". The risks of mixing have been VERY well explained, logically, and backed up by years and years of experience from countless hobbyists....and it´s all in the best interests of the animals.
So, in short, yes, you can certainly mix species as long as you don´t care about the consequences...
If what´s more important for you is to ensure the well-being and prosperity of your animals, instead of the visual value of a mixed colony, then you won´t assume unnecessary risks.
Click to expand...

The point Mark made is a good point. They are more agressive during feedingtime in captivity wich might be a problem with species off differend sizes.

The issue of the pathogens isn't really a good issue. If you are worried about pathogens acquired in captivity, you shouldn't buy individuals from several breeders neither. Bringing in new blood could bring some unknown pathogens to. You shouldn't even bring new plants in your aquarium then, because that might be a risk to and don't feed you're newts live food, etc, etc... Don't forget to disinfect you're net before using it for another tank. And Azhael it's not an offence, it's a discussion. ;)

Edit: For clarity: It's not my intension to go mixing, It's just that I saw some differend people mixing some species without any problems and I can't understand the generalisation of mixing species.
 
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I have a question for you. Why do you want to mix species? What are your motivations? Take a look at why you want to do this and reply. I'm very curious. What's so compelling about keeping different species together? Does it have any benefits to the animals? To you as a keeper? Please enlighten me as I want to know why pro-species-mixing people want to do what they do (or speak up for).
 
Abrahm said:
I have a question for you. Why do you want to mix species? What are your motivations? Take a look at why you want to do this and reply. I'm very curious. What's so compelling about keeping different species together? Does it have any benefits to the animals? To you as a keeper? Please enlighten me as I want to know why pro-species-mixing people want to do what they do (or speak up for).
Click to expand...

Hey Abrahm,

Who said that I want to mix them?? My question is "why shouldn't it be possible" and no I have no intensions to go mixing them. I just don't understand the problem why it couldn't be done if I have experienced a whole differend thing in a 100L pond. Never said that I want to go mixing...
 
I accept that the possibility of patogen exchange with CB animals is a minor problem, specially because most of us don´t take any precaution with this issue. It´s one of the risks of mixing nonetheless, and deserves being mentioned. However, i raised other problems that you don´t seem to be taking into account and are much more obvious and risky.
I understand it´s a discussion, i like discussions, they are fun, and they are vital for a forum such as this. But precisely because it´s a civilized discussion, adjectives such as "stupid" are completely out of order. Moreso in a topic as discussed to exhaustion and backed up by so mch experience as this.
 
stavroske said:
Hey Abrahm,

Who said that I want to mix them?? My question is "why shouldn't it be possible" and no I have no intensions to go mixing them. I just don't understand the problem why it couldn't be done if I have experienced a whole differend thing in a 100L pond. Never said that I want to go mixing...
Click to expand...

It most certainly CAN be done....the matter of the problem is that it SHOULDN´T.
 
Oke Azhael, I see what you mean but my english is not that good so I use words that come up to me. The word "stupid" isn't the right word, using babelfish it would be "unqualifiable". And I don't mean it is unqualifiable for all mixing but I think it shouldn't be generalized for all mixing possibility's.
I see people mixing without any problem but they don't say it on forums because they get bad reactions on it. Even if it goes well for about 20years they still get bad reactions as if they don't care about there animals...

Edit: To say "it can but it shouldn't" is a little weird. Oke it's not a must. they don't need eachother that's a fact, but can they live together? (Yes that's a fact!) Is it cruel to put them together? Do they get stressed from eachother?
 
I would be very interested indeed in hearing direct experience from someone who has kept mixed colonies in total captivity for such an extended period of time.
As far as i know we haven´t had the luck of having such a case in this forum.

I´ve been thinking and i have another point regarding agression that i´d like to make, cause i think it´s rather relevant.

You make a very good point in saying that there are risks even when introducing new blood. In fact, there are risks with keeping more than one animal in a tank. Most of us have some story about missing fingers, limbs, chunks of tails, etc. And this happens in monospecific tanks. But there is a VERY good reason why this problems must be accepted and considered normal, and the reason is that you need to keep more than one newt in a tank if you want to breed them.
That´s the big difference with mixing species, in my opinion. Mixing species comes with the risk of agression too, but the vital difference is that there is absolutely no need to mix. Therefore, the agressions resulting from the mix, are completely avoidable and unnecessary. And that´s the key of the problem.

There are risks that need to be taken and risks that are completely gratuitous and unnecessary. Avoiding the unnecessary ones is the job of a good hobbyists.


About the bad way in which most of us react against mixers, i have to say that the main reason is because the vast majority of mixers are doing a very bad job. On the other hand, i personally dislike any situation of species mixing, because as i´ve said, it carries UNNECESSARY risks, and as a hobbyists i can´t help but find that egoistical.
I don´t have a problem when mixes are involved in a natural, outdoor situation, though, since in such a case, nature takes its course.
 
Oke let me generalize it to. If you say that even when you can mix some species and you do so, it is egoistical. At this point you call a lot of poisonous frog keepers egoistic because they mix species. Even a birdkeeper who mixes species in his cages is egoistical then, OR is it just egoistical if you do it with salamanders??
 
stavroske said:
Hey Abrahm,

Who said that I want to mix them?? My question is "why shouldn't it be possible" and no I have no intensions to go mixing them. I just don't understand the problem why it couldn't be done if I have experienced a whole differend thing in a 100L pond. Never said that I want to go mixing...
Click to expand...

Well, you're asking why you can't mix. I want to ask you why do you think you should mix. As Johnny said earlier this forum is littered with threads discussing multi-species enclosures. In my mind the reasoning behind single species enclosures is compelling. I have yet to hear a reason for multi-species enclosures (beyond educational ones like zoos) that extends much beyond "I want to," "I can" or "I don't want to buy another enclosure."

Either you're being the devil's advocate, which isn't really productive, or you have some pro-species-mixing viewpoints. If you are pro-species-mixing then I want you to provide me with some good reasons. The burden of evidence is no longer (and never really has been) on the single species people. We have mountains of evidence, anecdotes (the plural of which is not data, but is still interesting) and logic on our side. All I've heard from the pro-species-mixing crowd is a few anecdotes (My friend of a friend, Jim, mixes Lissotriton with no ill efects!) and the above mentioned "I want to," "I can" or "I don't want to buy another enclosure."

So, no. I have nothing to prove to you anymore. Please be so kind as to defend your position instead of arguing against mine.

Note: I am not saying that species mixing is impossible or unilaterally bad. But, in general, it is not necessary and has few if any benefits. An experienced keeper could pull it off, I know but too many inexperienced people want to try it and for them it is particularly a bad idea.
 
stavroske said:
Oke let me generalize it to. If you say that even when you can mix some species and you do so, it is egoistical. At this point you call a lot of poisonous frog keepers egoistic because they mix species. Even a birdkeeper who mixes species in his cages is egoistical then, OR is it just egoistical if you do it with salamanders??
Click to expand...

A lot of dart frog keepers that I've read about are anti-species mixing. The possibility of hybrids is too dangerous to the hobby. As a bird keeper I'm highly against mixing bird species also. Every interaction my different species of birds have had has been carefully human monitored. All birds of parrot level intelligence should also be enclosed separately to prevent the development of problem behaviors. Trust me, the knowledgeable parrot keepers do not house different species of birds together. Either do those who keep passerines (finches, doves, etc.)

We (at least I) are not being hypocritical about our species mixing views.
 
There is a big difference between dendrobatids, birds and caudates, and it´s that caudates are ALL opportunistic predators. If you keep dendrobatids together, they will compete for food, but as far as i know agression is very rarely a problem. The same can be said about certain birds.
Caudates on the other hand are agressive, territorial in many cases, and most of all they are predators (dendrobatids are too, but being specialized in tiny prey, the issue changes completely).
You wouldn´t mix two species of bird that can potentially predate on each other, would you? Then why would someone mix species of caudate that can potentially harm each other if it is not for selfish reasons like Abrahm has pointed out?
 
Abrahm I get you're point. It looks like it's a discussion far beyond the salamanderhobby. I'm not fighting you're opinion and I don't have the intension to go mixing. Offcourse it would be nice to see differend species in 1 cage, wich I think everyone could agree. Buying cages is no problem for me and I still have an empty basement wich I can use for newts. So place isn't a problem either. Calling me the devils advocate... ok if you want to call it that, i can live with that.
But I have a question for you guys who are discussing this with me. Wich species have you guys mixed in the past? I don't mean species from other habitats, but only species from the same habitats?
 
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