New Setup

thank you all I have a bit of reading to do lol.
 
For the record, the NLS I am feeding them has 8000 IU/KG of Vitamin A. It has ethoxyquin as the last ingredient. I feed the TheraA+ Extra Large (because it is the largest sinking pellet NLS has). When I was talking to a Hikari rep and mentioned NLS his only response was about the ethoxyquin and that it can cause tumors in fish. I am not sure what the frequency of this occurring is, or at what concentration is significant, but I would not argue at all that safe is better than sorry.

If I am not mistaken Hikari Sinking Carnivore Pellets and Massivore Delite do not have ethoxyquin and would be my second pick for pellets (which one would depend on the size of the axolotl). These were the pellets fed to the two that the manager had for a while.

Garlic is also used in fish not only as an appetite stimulant but as a treatment for internal parasites as well. (Yes, I know, this does not necessarily mean it is safe for axolotls because axolotls are not fish.)
 
Ethoxyquin....

There is a lot of hype about ethoxyquin and its use in pet foods.... At this time, this is all anecdotal as unless fed in very high amounts it has not been shown to be toxic or carcenogenic (see http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00119.html for a short review of it (and see references at http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/oldcomm6/other/10_en.pdf). Due to the fuss about ethoxyquin, many companies no longer use it as part of thier foods as a preservative which leads to a shorter shelflife for the foods due to increased oxidation of fat soluable vitamins. If foods that contain high levels of oxidized fat soluable vitamins are used then conditional nutritional deficiencies can result.

There are some broad nutritional guidelines for amphibians as dry matter on a kcal basis the ratios should be as close to 50% protien, 44% fat and 6% carbohydrate. Most of the pelleted diets on the market as broken down on a % weight diet which is useless when evaluating the nutritional need of the amphibian as diets are figured out via kcals.

When looking at the nutrient list for the NLS, the biggest thing that flags up for me is the high levels of vitamin A as retinol compared to D3. This can over time cause problems with MBD as a conditional form if hypervitaminosis of A. The ratios of vitamin A (as retinol or retinol acetate) to D3 and E should be as close to 10:1:0.1 as possible otherwise conditional deficiences will eventually occur. When reviewing the levels of vitamin A in a product you need to determine if it is being supplied as a form of retinol or betacarotene (or other carotenoid like lutein) as only the retinol is toxic. Many foods list vitamin A on thier label but use beta carotene as the souce as it doesn't have the toxic issues that are a problem with retinol. Where an ingredient is listed in order of prevalence doesn't necessarily indicate how much is present. While the Rangen pellets list vitamin A in the middle of the list, this doesn't mean that it maybe as high as listed in the NLS formulation.
I have some concerns about the levels of vitamin A in the NLS formulation as they are at the top of the acceptable levels before toxicity occurs meaning that there is little leeway in the diet when using these.

Garlic really only has value as an antiparasitic if you are consuming whole cloves as once it has been cut the active compounds oxidize and have no real value anymore. This is hard to avoid in an extruded pellet...

Some comments,

Ed

I can go on a lot more about amphibian nutrition if anyone really wants to hear it....

Ed
 
I would love to hear more about amphibian nutrition. It would be nice to have a review of the information from such a good source.

So, in your opinion, ethoxyquin isn't really a danger? I haven't had time to look at those links yet but I will and probably some other sources too.
 
The NLS I am feeding has Beta Carotene, but then a few ingredients later has Vitamin A acetate, so I guess it has both.

The garlic in the food does seem to help a lot (it has turned some of my discus around when they were getting thin) and it is even recommended by Jack Wattley (not NLS necessarily, but I have seen in responses in TFH magazine where he has described a recipe for garlic in prepared foods to treat internal parasites).
 
snip "The NLS I am feeding has Beta Carotene, but then a few ingredients later has Vitamin A acetate, so I guess it has both. "endsnip

Actually if you know what goes into the ingredients and look on the list you will see that there are at least two direct sources of vitamin A as retinol ( from the NLS ingredients "Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Vitamin A Acetate") fish oil and vitamin A acetate. Both contain retinol. The problem is still with the high levels of vitamin A in the food. Depending on the ratio it can take quite awhile for symptoms to appear but by the time they do the condition with respect to bone deformation is irreversiable and can be quite tragic. In animals that do not have to support weight, the deformations may not be initially seen unless the amphibian is x-rayed as the fractures and deformation can be of the internal structures such as spinal fractures due to movement and flexing of muscles or in some cases the jaw bones demonstrate deformation to the point the animals cannot feed.

So how much D3 does the NLS contain?

Ed
 
Based on the current real literature... ethoxyquin is not a danger...

Ed
 
If the amount of D3 is listed at 450 IU/Kg then there can real problems down the road with metabolic bone disease as this means that the ratio of A: D3 is well outside the range of 10:1. (8000:450 = 17.78:1 ratio of A: D3).

Ed
 
Reptile_guy,

Why not try live food such as earthworms or bloodworms,slugs or crickets.
Or Axolotl pellets.
Would'nt it be more nutritional for an axoltol to eat things like worms and insects that it would eat in the wild, or pellets specifically made for axololtls as opposed to fish food?
Im no expert but thats the advice I have been given here.
 
The main pellet that is used for axolotls are the Soft-Moist Salmon Diet by Rangen Inc.These pellets fit into the nutritional requirements of amphibians.

Ed
 
Reptileguy2727 said:
Where can I buy them?
Click to expand...
I googled it and found this information
The pellets called "Soft-Moist Salmon Diet" by Rangen, Inc., can be ordered in 50lb boxes at approximately .60¢/lb + shipping: Rangen, Inc. POB 706, 115 13 Ave So Guhl, Idaho, 83316. Telephone (208) 543-6421.​
 
Bit of a late bump on the garlic topic, but I thought people on here might be interested;

We just gave our axies a new brand of brineshrimp which has garlic extract added (Tropical Marine Centre "Brineshrimp + Garlic"), and it was like catnip to them! We hand fed them about twenty minutes prior to this post, and both of them are still rooting around the bottom of the tank trying to find more - it's the most active we've ever seen them post-feeding!
 
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