J
juraj
Guest
Apart from breeding season males are often aggressive towards females.
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K
kim
Guest
ouch.. what a pain in the back side
Was this during feeding?
Is she ok?
Was this during feeding?
Is she ok?
J
juraj
Guest
No, it wasn`t. Is this territorial aggression ?
She is ok.
She is ok.
B
benjamin
Guest
You should keep them in pairs. Warty newts are like people, they choose one partner and stick with it, attacking any other animals regardless of gender. It is terretorial.
M
mark
Guest
Ben - I have never read nor heard anything that would suggest the selection of one partner amongst Paramesotriton. Please share your source of this information.
Juraj - interesting, I never noticed aggression amongst my hongkongensis, even during feeding time.
Juraj - interesting, I never noticed aggression amongst my hongkongensis, even during feeding time.
C
chris
Guest
I haven't got any reference...but...at least in my fuzhongensis the male pairs up with a female from late autumn to early spring (the breeding season) and only attempts to court her. Other females are either ignored or chased out his territory. Re literature, there is next to nothing available on the ecology of Paramesotriton in the wild - most the species simply have a descriptive paper and a long string of redesignation papers to their names. A lot of what there is is written in German (eg. the DGHT Amphibia magazine).
Chris
Chris
C
chris
Guest
Mike
Every Autumn the male tries to mate with the larger, plumper female (which makes sense) and bullies the smaller one. I remove the smaller female during the breeding season. I haven't got any scientific proof of this behaviour, but the Belgian Paramesotriton expert Henri Jansens said his fuzhongensis form a pair too. I think I am right in thinking that Pachytriton form pairs in this way as well.
You are right to say that this is a small sample size, and the animals are neither in their natural habitat nor monitored 24/7, but the smaller female i have has never produced eggs, even though the male has successfully mated with the other female...
As you said, this may well be a misplaced observation, but I think there is at least some truth in it.
Chris
Every Autumn the male tries to mate with the larger, plumper female (which makes sense) and bullies the smaller one. I remove the smaller female during the breeding season. I haven't got any scientific proof of this behaviour, but the Belgian Paramesotriton expert Henri Jansens said his fuzhongensis form a pair too. I think I am right in thinking that Pachytriton form pairs in this way as well.
You are right to say that this is a small sample size, and the animals are neither in their natural habitat nor monitored 24/7, but the smaller female i have has never produced eggs, even though the male has successfully mated with the other female...
As you said, this may well be a misplaced observation, but I think there is at least some truth in it.
Chris
N
nate
Guest
We could go decades without some sort of scientific data on the behavior of Paramesotriton, unfortunately.
I've had a couple other Paramesotriton keepers tell me they think their animals form pairs or that only one female breeds while the others are treated aggressively by the male(s), almost as if they were males themselves. There's probably something to it. If Plethodon cinereus females can distinguish and punish polygynous males (Prosen 2002), is it so far-fetched to think male Paramesotriton can pick a favorite female?
As for monogamous reptiles, a couple come to mind: Shingleback skinks, nile crocs. I doubt that what Chris is seeing is true monogamy though.
I've had a couple other Paramesotriton keepers tell me they think their animals form pairs or that only one female breeds while the others are treated aggressively by the male(s), almost as if they were males themselves. There's probably something to it. If Plethodon cinereus females can distinguish and punish polygynous males (Prosen 2002), is it so far-fetched to think male Paramesotriton can pick a favorite female?
As for monogamous reptiles, a couple come to mind: Shingleback skinks, nile crocs. I doubt that what Chris is seeing is true monogamy though.
C
chris
Guest
As I only have two females, it may well not be the selection of one female over another, but the rejection of the less 'attractive' female. I have an idea that should the larger female be removed from the group, the male would simply court the only available female left.
It would seem to make sense that in a river habitat where there are fewer food resources than in a pond ecosystem, reproducing with only the most successful female would produce the offspring most likely to survive. Mating with a less successful female would run the risk of simply wasting resources.
This works twice as effectively, as the males also compete for the females and territory. In this way, the most successful male would mate with the most successful female
Chris
It would seem to make sense that in a river habitat where there are fewer food resources than in a pond ecosystem, reproducing with only the most successful female would produce the offspring most likely to survive. Mating with a less successful female would run the risk of simply wasting resources.
This works twice as effectively, as the males also compete for the females and territory. In this way, the most successful male would mate with the most successful female
Chris
N
nate
Guest
Mike-
Maybe you misunderstood. I wasn't extrapolating anything, just pointed out the Prosen paper as an example of salamanders behaving in ways we wouldn't expect (so as not to rule out possibilities).
I certainly don't consider it to be monogamy and never used that term to describe it (I don't think Chris did either) so I'm sort of at a loss to respond to what you have written. Seems you're arguing against labeling it monogamy (which I'd agree with at this point) while no one is arguing for it to be labeled as such. Or did I miss something?
Regardless, there appears to be a very real phenomenon seen in the hobby where a male Paramesotriton picks a single female to court, often in conjunction with bullying the other females. And I think we can all agree that the sort of opinions, speculation, and discussions that result from such curious observations are exactly what makes this forum interesting.
Maybe you misunderstood. I wasn't extrapolating anything, just pointed out the Prosen paper as an example of salamanders behaving in ways we wouldn't expect (so as not to rule out possibilities).
I certainly don't consider it to be monogamy and never used that term to describe it (I don't think Chris did either) so I'm sort of at a loss to respond to what you have written. Seems you're arguing against labeling it monogamy (which I'd agree with at this point) while no one is arguing for it to be labeled as such. Or did I miss something?
Regardless, there appears to be a very real phenomenon seen in the hobby where a male Paramesotriton picks a single female to court, often in conjunction with bullying the other females. And I think we can all agree that the sort of opinions, speculation, and discussions that result from such curious observations are exactly what makes this forum interesting.
J
juraj
Guest
I kept 2,2 together. The animals formed pairs during breeding season however after a sudden death of one male the odd female wasn`t treated by the other male. He intensified courting and formed nice breeding trio with two females.
R
ralf
Guest
Ahh, a clear proof for perennial polygamy following dual monogamy in Slovak Paramesotriton hongkongensis.
C
chris
Guest
Mike
I never intended to infer the possibility of monogamy.
I stand corrected on the reproductive/evlolutionary front - having thought about it I don't quite see where my reasoning came from...
I still insist that there is some sort of selection of female by male Paramesotriton, but I would certainly not go as far as to advocate the existence of true monogamy in this genus.
Perhaps its due to food resources in a river system - the male can only afford to share his territory's food with one female, particularly during the energy-expensive breeding season, and so chooses the 'best' female.... just an idea...probably wrong
Chris
(Message edited by froggy on June 09, 2005)
I never intended to infer the possibility of monogamy.
I stand corrected on the reproductive/evlolutionary front - having thought about it I don't quite see where my reasoning came from...
I still insist that there is some sort of selection of female by male Paramesotriton, but I would certainly not go as far as to advocate the existence of true monogamy in this genus.
Perhaps its due to food resources in a river system - the male can only afford to share his territory's food with one female, particularly during the energy-expensive breeding season, and so chooses the 'best' female.... just an idea...probably wrong
Chris
(Message edited by froggy on June 09, 2005)