Pornographic pictures

[Velaria]

Ray,

I, too, am very fond of you. Thank you so much for writing all of that. You really cleared up a lot of confusion for me. I can't wait to read part two

Oh, by the way, my albino adult does have iridophores. I noticed this when I shone a flashlight on him. After taking photos of both my black axie and my albino axie, I noticed that only the white axie's eyes reflected in the photos. I therefore (wrongly) assumed that if an animal does have iridophores, then the eyes will reflect in the photo, and if the animal has no iridophores, then the eyes will not reflect. So I did think that the photo of him that I posted showed proof. But to clear up any doubt, yes, my albino axie has iridophores.

... and to clear up any confusion on the babies, baby #1 does have iridophores, and baby #2 does not. I fully inspected them

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi again ladies,

I have thought of how its best to explore Velaria's axies genes and think its essential to first classify the genotype combinations based on the possible colours. Thereafter, based on the photos (phenotype) we can infer which are the likelier genotypes and then we can perform the simple mendelian genetics.

Genetics ‘mapping’ method
It would be simple mendelian type of inheritance because as mentioned earlier, all colour genes are independant and not mutually exclusive. They are also not co-dominance traits that would dilute or mix colours like in seen in some other animals and plants.

Question for Velaria
Firstly, I need to establish if the two larvae as shown in the photos were the direct progeny of the two adult axies shown in the earlier photographs. I thought they are not related?
I thought initially you were trying to sex the two adult axies? If they did produce those larvae, It would have been very self explanatory which of the adults are male and female and would have defeated the purpose of your initial post?

Larvae phenotype

It is much easier to determine if a larvae possesses xanthophores and melanophores, in fact you can normally see them right away, although colours may not darken or appear as extensive as when they are adults. Xanthophores and melanophores are pigment based.

However, it would take much later to determine if a larvae possesses iridosphores. This is because iridosphores are actually purine crystal accumulates. Purines together with pyrimidines make up the two groups of nitrogenous bases, including the two groups of nucleotide base. Two of the four deoxyribonucleotides and two of the four ribonucleotides, the respective building blocks of DNA and RNA are purines.

Chromatophores develop during different embryonic stages. Melanophores and xanthophores are present upon hatching. However, the iridosphores, partly because they require purine crystals to accumulate, actually only show up about 120 days after the larvae has hatched. Even, the ‘eye ring’ may not develop fully yet prior to this period and may thus lead to confusion. That is why sometimes what breeders thought were melanoids turn up to be wildtypes etc when they grow a bit older. It is generally safer to try determine what they are only after the 120 day period.

The 4 shiny patches on the cephalic (head/neck) region are actually developing internal organs. The axie larvae has very translucent skin at this stage so don’t confuse those with iridosphores.

Iridosphores may accumulate anywhere on the axie, not just confined to the gills and eye ring. I guess its much easier to see this in wildtypes because the contrast of the glittery iridosphores against a darker background makes them so much more obvious. Iridosphores can show up as patches, speckles that are distributed all over the body. Just shine a light source against the animal’s skin. Scan it around and if something glittery appears, you know they have iridosphores.

Larvae 1 - I can see melanophores, xanthophores and an obvious eye ring. You are right that it can be leucistic but it can also be a wild type. Remember that wildtypes can appear as a spectrum of colouration. Some are very light brown, almost beige with few spots while others could be really dark. Also, the much coveted piebald and harlequins are actually also ‘leucistic’ in the sense that the colour patches that form are due to varying ‘development’ gene. They all possess colour pigments, just in what quantity that is allowed to be expressed. One thing in common, they all possess black eyes.

Larvae 2 - Your second larvae also has black eyes, so that rules out all the albinos. I can also see some melanophores but no xanthophores. You could have a melanoid, you are absolutely right. However, it could also be a very young leucistic.

I think I shall leave discussing the adult axies genes for part 3. Im having a backache now lol.

Cheers

 

[Velaria]

Question for Velaria
Firstly, I need to establish if the two larvae as shown in the photos were the direct progeny of the two adult axies shown in the earlier photographs. I thought they are not related?
I thought initially you were trying to sex the two adult axies? If they did produce those larvae, It would have been very self explanatory which of the adults are male and female and would have defeated the purpose of your initial post?

Hi, Ray! No, the two larvae are not the direct progeny of the two adults. The larvae are not related to the adults in any way. I just happen to have a few adults and about 26 larvae, and yes, I was originally simply attempting to sex the two adults, but my question about the larvaes' genetic makeup arose because you stated that leucistics are non melanoid. When I read that, I wondered if I had a larvae that was an anomaly because he is my ONLY white larvae with black eyes who does not have any iridophores.

His lack of iridophores would consequently make him melanoid, so then he must be a very light colored melanoid and NOT leucistic, right? That is, of course, assuming that he will not display any iridophores as he gets older. He was born on November 6, though, so he is exactly four months old now, which means he's hit the 120 day mark, and I should therefore be able to assume that if the iridophores have not yet shown up on him, then they probably won't, correct?

And of course, if the larvae had been the progeny of the two adults, then yes, the gender of the adults would have been quite obvious . I'm new to axolotl sexing and breeding, but I know enough about the birds and the bees, lol!

The 4 shiny patches on the cephalic (head/neck) region are actually developing internal organs. The axie larvae has very translucent skin at this stage so don’t confuse those with iridosphores.

That's exactly what I suspected. No, I didn't confuse those shiny patches with iridophores

Iridosphores may accumulate anywhere on the axie, not just confined to the gills and eye ring.

This, I was not aware of. My adult albino definitely has iridophores, but they're only in his eyes and on his stubby little gills. He doesn't have them anywhere else on his body.

I guess its much easier to see this in wildtypes because the contrast of the glittery iridosphores against a darker background makes them so much more obvious.

Maybe that's why they're not showing up as much on the albino.

Larvae 1 - I can see melanophores, xanthophores and an obvious eye ring. You are right that it can be leucistic but it can also be a wild type. Remember that wildtypes can appear as a spectrum of colouration.

Interesting! So larvae #1 may actually be a very light colored wildtype! I was suspicious of that because he displays that greenish coloration in his spots. Is there any way to get a definitive determination as to whether he's a wildtype or a leucistic?

Larvae 2 - Your second larvae also has black eyes, so that rules out all the albinos. I can also see some melanophores but no xanthophores. You could have a melanoid, you are absolutely right. However, it could also be a very young leucistic.

Young leucistic if it ends up displaying iridophores, otherwise it's just a light melanoid, right?

I am getting such an education! Thank you so much!

You know, I was thinking that it would be really cool if someone (not me, because I don't know enough) were to make a web page that could diagnose axolotl genetics with a series of yes/no questions which could then determine any and all possible genotypes and phenotypes for the axolotl in question. After that has been determined, it would be wonderful if there were a "progeny calculator", kind of like a Punnet (sp?) Square, where the genetic information of a breeding pair of axolotls could be input and the genetic information about what the offspring would likely look like could be calculated. Just wanted to put that out there in case anyone is up for the task

Ray, I cannot thank you enough for all of your help, and I REALLY look forward to part 3. I will be checking back often. You have been such a huge help. Thank you SO much.

OH- one more question! Now that it has been determined that the albino adult is male, is it strange that I have had him for over two years and I have never ONCE seen any spermatophores in the tank? Up until recently, he was the only axie that I owned, so I'm wondering if male axolotls generally deposit spermatophores in the tank even when there are no potential mates around that they can see. Perhaps now that I recently acquired two more adult axies (the black one and a so-called "blue" one... more on this later, of course!), if one of the two new axies turns out to be female, then the albino male WILL begin depositing spermatophores??

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Valeria,

No this is not part 3 post yet, just a few quick notes on your earlier questions.

Yes your first larvae could be a light coloured wildtype. The only way to definitely know is just letting nature take its course and see it grow up! Because colour pigment distribution is only somewhat beginning in young larvae, it would take some time for their full colour pattern to show. The early colour patterns could be indicative of what the adult would look like but sometimes as with everything in nature, it can be a red herring and you end up puzzled as to why it grows up so different looking. It was like how i was always called a cute kid but then as i grew up, an ugly stick hit me and i wondered why i didnt turn out the way i thought i would lol.

For larvae 2, yes i would actually be inclined to go with melanoid in that case, since they are already 4 months old, but there is always a possibility that it is a late blooming leucistic.

Your idea of having a automated genetic 'table' is very interesting and actually doable. However, it is one massive undertaking. I would definitely help out whereever i can, but there are professional geneticists here whom i think would do a much better job. Furthermore, im a self-confessed IT moron and anything more complex with computers and i would be like a deer at headlights. I think it is worthwhile asking John and Jennewt about their opinions on this. With their support, and a team of volunteers, it is a worthwhile project.

Cheers.

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hihi,

Ok this is the finale post. Let us go back to the 2 adult axies.


Dark Axie

Based on the phenotypic presentation, i guess we can all safely agree that the dark coloured one is a dark melanoid.

Melanoids lack iridosphpores and are homozygous for "m" only (i.e. m/m), but they may be heterozygous for other colour mutations. Bear in mind that both melanophores and xanthophores can still be present. However, the proportion of the darker melanophores is increased and because its darkly pigmented, can mask the presence of xanthophores. Imagine you colour a yellow patch on a piece of paper with a crayon and then colour black on top of the yellow patch, can you still see the yellow as clearly? THis is the reason why dark melanoids can carry different 'hues'. Some appear jet black, some appear almost bluish or purplish. This is because of the amounts of xanthophores expressed.

Alhough melanoids lack iridosphore, it doesnt mean they do not carry the iridosphore genes, it just means that the genotype is not a recessive pairing which would show up phenotypically. Therefore it can still carry the M/M or M/m genotypes. I think a lot of people get confused by terminology at this point. When an animal is described as non-iridescent, it just means its carrying the m/m gene which doesn't allow the iridescent pigments to be seen not that it doesnt carry this set of genes.

Because the pigments are allowed to surface, we can say that the development gene would be dominant. That means it could be D/D or D/d.

Because each colour and development gene set are indepedantly inherited, non mutually exclusive and non co-dominant, we actually have to consider all 4 sets to deduce offspring colour percentage.Therefore if we were to write up the entire colour and development genotype, we can get something like:

(D/D or D/d) (m/m) (A/A or A/a) (Ax/Ax or Ax/ax or ax/ax).


Albino axie

I hope at this point nobody is confused that this is a leucistic. Leucistics definitely have pigments in their eyes and would not have pink eyes. Now lets look at your albino. I can actually see blotches of yellow pigment around the head region. However, i cannot say for sure if i can see iridescent or yellow pigment on the limbs. I am not sure if they are really pigments or that your tank glass surface or camera lens is dirty and showing up artifact. We can also safely say its not likely to be a golden albino (axie doesnt show a rich all over yellow pigment) or plain white albino (because of presence of small yellow pigment around head).

White albinos are definitely homozygous for "d" and "a" (d/d and a/a), but not necessarily for m or ax gene. There will be no melanophores being produced, but Iridosphores and xanthophores can still be produced. However, because there is a development gene that prevents pigment migration, even if xanthophores are present, they cannot be seen because they cannot migrate. Iridosphores though are slightly different in that it is purine crystal accumulation rather than 'pigment', therefore some can still be seen phenotypically. Because i can see the yellow on your axie's head, i think this rules the white albino out.

An axanthic albino is still a possibility. The axanthic albino has normal pigment cell migration but is homozygous for the albino gene, melanoid and the axanthic gene (m/m, a/a and ax/ax), meaning it lacks melanophores, xanthophores and iridophores. It is almost white, but becomes yellow with age due to the accumulation of riboflavins from its diet. Axanthic axies tend to look kind of light pastel peach colour all over but especially around the head, rather than white, pink or gold.
The genotype can look like this.

(D/D or D/d) (m/m) (a/a) (ax/ax).

What i think is most likely though is the fourth type of axie, the melanoid albino. It is homozygous for "m" and "a" (m/m a/a). But it is still able to produce xanthophores, and the development gene still allows the pigment to be expressed. This is a male axolotl. While a non-albino melanoid would be black, the combination of melanism and albinism "removes" all pigment except a tiny hint of yellow xanthophores on the head and back.

(D/D or D/d) (m/m) (a/a) (Ax/ax or Ax/Ax).

That is my deduction of what your adult axies are. If you want to determine the proportion of each colour type of offspring you would have to take one gene from each set from each parent and pair them up to see the combinations you obtain. This is one long tedious, mind numbing activity that you can do on very very boring days.

Cheers.

 

[Velaria]

Thank you, Ray!

I think you're right. The albino adult is either axanthic or melanoid. That would mean that it wouldn't have iridophores, though... I do see reflective particles in his eyes and on his gills, but maybe I'm mistaking them for iridophores. If he did have iridophores, he would have to be golden albino. He does have some yellow pigment on his limbs (I believe that it's visible in photo A), but his yellow coloring is not vivid by any means. The tank and camera are clean enough... the yellow that you're seeing is on the axolotl. Perhaps once my wildtype babies grow up, I'll be able to compare their iridophores to those of my adult albino, and then I'll know for sure if the albino has iridophores.

Please answer one more question- the one that I posted earlier. I'll copy and paste it:

OH- one more question! Now that it has been determined that the albino adult is male, is it strange that I have had him for over two years and I have never ONCE seen any spermatophores in the tank? Up until recently, he was the only axie that I owned, so I'm wondering if male axolotls generally deposit spermatophores in the tank even when there are no potential mates around that they can see. Perhaps now that I recently acquired two more adult axies (the black one and a so-called "blue" one... more on this later, of course!), if one of the two new axies turns out to be female, then the albino male WILL begin depositing spermatophores??

Thank you sooooooo much!

Oh, and now that you've explained the pigments of melanoid axies, there's no need to discuss my "blue" adult. Her cloaca is smaller than that of the black one, so I'm going to assume that she's female

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Velaria,

I was also contemplating if your albino could be a ligher shade golden albino. However because i see your tank glass surface appears rather erm 'linty' (especially the face shot pic) , i couldn't definitely say if they are iridosphores or artifacts due to light reflection.

If you are very certain you can see shiny iridosphores and can definitely see a distinct eye ring, i would say that it is not a melanoid in that case but rather a golden albino albeit with a much lighter shade than i would have expected. Normal golden albinos tend to be very obviously richly coloured gold due to their increased expression of xanthophores. The xanthophore distribution would also cover the entire axie extensively and not limited to subtle pale patches around the head.

Frankly the first thing i thought of when i saw that axie was 'axanthic". It looks somewhat tan/peachy coloured to me.

Assuming your male axie is sexually fully matured, he would be able to produce spermatophores which are essentially small packets of sperm enclosed in a cone of mucus. The mucus is produced in the cloacal glands of the male axie and accounts for the swelling of these glands in the mature male.

Spematophores do not simply get deposited randomly like axie poop but only when there is breeding stimulus. Breeding stimulus goes beyond just having a male and female axie. There must be the right 'romantic ambience' as well, such as proper tank set up with substrates or plants to attach them to, good health and nutritional status, good water parameters, light or temperature changes that can help trigger the 'mood'.

Even if the male were to deposit spermatophores, they are not as easily found as the eggs in that each time 100s of eggs are laid whereas only about 25 spermatophores are deposited in one sitting. Breeding females also go around taking up the spermatophores for internal fertilisation, so they can disappear quite quickly.

Also i know it sounds a bit funny but spermatophores can also sometimes be mistakened for fuzzy semi rotting remnants of food. If you feed axie pellets, you occasionally might miss cleaning one up and can find this fuzzy pellet . You may have accidentally siphoned it all off without realising what it was.

Cheers.

 

[kira]

Ray, m'dear, you are a fountain of knowledge!!

 

[Velaria]

Ray, m'dear, you are a fountain of knowledge!!

That's an understatement, Kira!

Ray, yes, I guess the tank is a bit "linty", lol! I meant that the tank water was clean and that the walls of the inside of the tank are clean (no algae). But yes, I'm not the best when it comes to using glass cleaner on the outside of the tank. I will polish that tank so that there are no streaks or dust, and then I'll snap a few more photos of him. I truly do see a distinct eye ring, but I'll post some daylight photos taken with my flash turned off, and I'm sure his eye ring will be apparent in the new photos.

The photos that I tool of the larvae were taken with the flash turned off, and larvae #1's eye ring did show up, so it should work with the adult albino as well.

Thank you again, Ray!

 

[Darkmaverick]

Thank you Kira and Velaria,

You are both wonderful caudata members to have around, and i learn from you guys as well. It is with such discussions and topics that we all benefit and learn from.

Kira has devoted a lot of time helping out new axolotl owners with their questions and when i first joined this site, i used to learn from kira's ideas.

Velaria, i hope you too will now share your knowledge and help others as well.

Cheers.

 

[kira]

Kira has devoted a lot of time helping out new axolotl owners with their questions and when i first joined this site, i used to learn from kira's ideas.

Ray, that is really sweet! However, the amount of knowledge that your brain contains makes mine want to explode!! LOL

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi hi all,

I just couldn't resist not sharing this scientific journal article that discusses the development gene.

Title: Migratory patterns and developmental potential of trunk neural crest cells in the axolotl embryo.
Author(s): Epperlein, Hans-Henning; Selleck, Mark A.J.; Meulemans, Daniel; et al.
Source: Developmental Dynamics Volume: 236 Issue: 2 Page(s): 389-403 Published: February 2007

Abstract
"Using cell markers and grafting, we examined the timing of migration and developmental potential of trunk neural crest cells in axolotl. No obvious differences in pathway choice were noted for DiI-labeling at different lateral or medial positions of the trunk neural folds in neurulae, which contributed not only to neural crest but also to Rohon-Beard neurons. Labeling wild-type dorsal trunks at pre- and early-migratory stages revealed that individual neural crest cells migrate away from the neural tube along two main routes: first, dorsolaterally between the epidermis and somites and, later, ventromedially between the somites and neural tube/notochord. Dorsolaterally migrating crest primarily forms pigment cells, with those from anterior (but not mid or posterior) trunk neural folds also contributing glia and neurons to the lateral line. White mutants have impaired dorsolateral but normal ventromedial migration. At late migratory stages, most labeled cells move along the ventromedial pathway or into the dorsal fin. Contrasting with other anamniotes, axolotl has a minor neural crest contribution to the dorsal fin, most of which arises from the dermomyotome. Taken together, the results reveal stereotypic migration and differentiation of neural crest cells in axolotl that differ from other vertebrates in timing of entry onto the dorsolateral pathway and extent of contribution to some derivatives."

Cheers