Pseudoeurycea bellii

matamander

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I'm sure someone else will post this, but I recently saw some Pseudoeurycea bellii available on fauna classifieds. Does anyone know if they are legit CB? They seem to be pretty rare in the pet trade and was curious if anyone knows of breeding going on outside of zoos. I've found some great resources (many of which were on this forum in old threads), but information does seem to be limited with this genus.
 
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Cliygh and Mia

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Honestly, I think they're lying to get extra money. Someone probably illegally brought them in from Mexico. So just don't get it, okay
 

Neotenic_Jaymes

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I saw the ad also. The pricing is on the high end for sure. I wonder who runs (btmexotics). At that price I don't think I'd even want to take a second look at the ad.

For most serious plethodontid keepers Pseudoeurcyea bellii is considered the Holy Grail of plethodon. I think they're the largest plethodontid species out there or at least one of the largest. Not much detailed information out there but if you look hard enough you may find some articles or papers on this species. I did come across a Mexican website that had tons of awesome photos of this species, though I can't provide a link. It was some time ago.
 

matamander

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Thanks for the comments guys. He is Jay Sommers. I reached out to him to inquire more and he said that he had sold them. I was curious how he kept them and he answered, but didn't provide specifics. I agree $400 is very steep for me, but these would be cool to have one day, especially if them come from a good CB source.

I'm reasonably sure that's Jay Sommers, and I suspect he got them in Europe.
Are people breeding P. bellii prolifically in Europe? I know I've heard of folks bringing in N. kaiseri from there.
 

manderkeeper

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400$ for something rare isn't too much. Let's say you pay that for car insurance and that lasts maybe a few months. The salamander may last for many years. I think it's always best to get the highest quality animals you can regardless if they are a little more. I'm thinking about picking up some Madagascar Tree boas for instance, probably will set me back 600 each and that's a good price for them, but they'll probably provide me 10 years of wonder.
 

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They seem to be regularly available there, judging by photos I've seen, but I have to wonder how many are truly CB, given the size of animals being sold. I seriously doubt the original stock was legal. I also doubt that any N.kaiseri would come into the USA after 2010. Once they were CITES 1 listed, there's no way USFWS would issue import permits for animals intended as private 'pets'. Other countries might do so, but not USFWS.
 

sdcr1121

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I thought I would just comment on the legality of Mexican species. From what I have been told by people who get the paperwork, if you know a guy who happens to have a certain species like pseudoeurycea bellii, that naturally occurs on his private property, he has a right to collect these animals and keep them for his own use. If in turn, he manages to produce offspring of his own, he can then choose to sell this captive bred offspring to whomever he pleases. Is that what actually happens? I don't know. Just thought I'd pass that on
 

matamander

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I've been told by a few coworkers that it's illegal to take anything out of Mexico. That being said, once it's out of Mexico it's not illegal anymore. At one point the parents of these CB Pseudoeurycea probably weren't legal, but where that started who knows. Like any of these rare species, hopefully one day they become more widely available and less valuable to decrease demand for wild collecting.
 

FrogEyes

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In the laws of both Canada and the USA, if at any point in time a law was broken to obtain the animals, then a federal law is broken to obtain them in these countries. That's Lacey Act for USA and WAPPRIITA for Canada.

It's my understanding that this is essentially why USFWS won't issue papers for CITES export of Australian species from the USA - the ancestors of CB animals could not have been obtained legally, and thus issuing of export permits would be one more link in a chain of violation. They can't directly prove it, but it's a logical conclusion and they can choose not to participate in it. Non-CITES species are different because USFWS doesn't have to provide such permits and can't normally prove illegality, so they have little control over the matter.
 
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