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Question: Novice Tagging?

sde

sde

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Hi all,

I am wondering how a novice like me could tag a amphibian?

I do a good amount of field herping, but I am always questioning if I have caught the animal before. I asked about it in another thread ( sorry to the person I hi-jacked the thread from :eek: ), and toe clipping sounds like the best option.
But, I am wondering if there are other methods that I could use, so that I have a range of options.
Any information and suggestions help, thanks!

:grin: -Seth
 
The problem is: just about any low-tech (inexpensive) method will put the tagged animal at a disadvantage. Clipping a toe could result in infection in some cases. And living without the toe could put the animal at a slight disadvantage. Also, what if the salamanders regrow the toes? Some species would certainly would regrow them, and the regrown toes are indistinguishable from the original toes.

Here's another idea: photography. The color patterns on most sals remain fairly unchanged during their lives. Some species with spots will get additional spots as they grow, but the size and location of their original spots tends to stay the same. This method would require 3 things: a camera with a macro function, a transparent container for taking clear photos of the dorsal and ventral sides of the animals, and a way to carefully catalog and retrieve the old photos for comparison.
 
Ok, yes I know that toes may grow back, but, it would take a while don't you think? I would think it would take about 5 months? if so I could maybe re clip there toe?

Photography, yes, I can take photos, but, I only have a digital camera that has a macro function, but I is horrible, almost never get a good picture on that setting.
Also, I catch a lot of herps in a trip some times so it would take a while to take a pic of them all, plus I can only be away from the house for about a hour at a time, so I could only have time for photographing and measuring etc. for about 2 sals.
 
What species are you wanting to tag Seth? I've seen people surveying T. cristatus populations and they just take a quick picture of their bellies and release them. Each newt is put in a small Perspex tray and held flat with a piece of foam rubber, it's very quick and causes no harm to the animals at all. I doubt it would work for species with a uniform belly colour like Taricha though.
 
I agree with the methods Jennewt suggested. Clipping a toe on every animal you find just so you can know weather you've caught it before or not is pretty unnecessary. The risk of infection even if small, is not really justifiable in my eyes.
 
The reason you clip the animals toe is so that you know that you have caught it before, not to damage it for fun!
Yes, I can agree with what otolith said, toe clipping is just what another mod suggested for me to do, instead of something like Visible Elastomer Implant (VIE).

The problem with photography is that a lot of the animals around here are pretty plain.
D. Tenebrosus, they would be pretty easy to tell apart from a pic.
A. Gracile, very plain brown, all pretty similar in size, and generally look very similar. I don't know how you could tell them apart from a photo.
A. M. Macrodactylum, they would be pretty easy because they have flecking.
T. Granulosa, very difficult, I can barely tell my females apart (the ones that I own I mean).
P. Vehiculum, pretty easy, they also have flecking.
E. Eschscholtzii, difficult, they are just plain tan brown around here, no flecking.

This is just my opinion, you may also be able to tell them apart from other things but I don't know what. Also, I find a lot of phibs, I have found over 100 this year, so checking photos would be difficult I think.
 
I don't really think it's worth the trauma to the animal if there's no research benefit involved. I worked on a study last year on treefrogs and while we did do toe clipping, it isn't painless. The thing is, we were clipping because we didn't want to use the same frogs in our samples, which would invalidate our study, and even then there were specific protocols to follow to make sure we were doing it responsibly. Minimal harm or not, I don't really feel it's justified to remove an animal's toe just for idle curiosity.

If you want to tag reptiles, you could use fingernail polish. I have a friend who always joked that her snakes wore more fingernail polish than she did. Won't work for amphibians, though.
 
Yes, I see what you are saying.

However, I would not be tagging for no reason, I record my findings, measurements, what it was found under, what soil it was on/in etc. so it not just so that I know I have caught it before. Like for your study I am recording data, so if I don't know it could effect my data.

However! I am sot arguing against not using toe clipping, I am not going to do that, I will try to find some other way. Thanks for the suggestion about reptiles! :grin:
 
Regarding the time... Notophthalmus can fully grow back a toe in 2-3 months.
 
Couldn't you just use the fluorescent powder/paint that entomologists sometimes use? With 3 different colours, you could mark them with codes of 4 or 5 dots. I've used this method with dragonfly nymphs, so I know it's fairly waterproof(nymphs molt it off eventually, of course, but it's useful for at least one season). It's non-toxic, but I would look into the ingredients before using it on amphibians.

I get mine from BioQuip, but it seems fairly common elsewhere too.
 
Paint on the skin would come off with a shed and some other staining techniques (e.g. methylene blue) affect both behaviour of tadpoles and their susceptibility to predation, but I have used elastomer dyes injected under the skin. This is probably the least invasive of all the invasive methods and lasts a lifetime if done correctly. It takes about 10 second and involves injecting a very tiny line of neutral elastomer go, which solidifies instantly, under the top layer of the skin, leaving a a tag. Elastomers that are 'invisible' with a blacklight can be used to avoid the animal being noticed more easily because of a coloured tag. It is more expensive, but the elastomer sachets you buy last ages if treated correctly. If you get the primary colours, they can be mixed so you avoid buying lots of other shades.They are also kept through metamorphosis (if the tail of anurans isn't marked), so you can follow animals before and after morphing.
Toe clipping has been shown to reduce the rate of recapture in a number of amphibians, so it definitely does affect the animals (surprise surprise).
 
Seth,

what purpose are you collecting the data for? What protocol do you follow? Did you inform yourself about the statistical value of the data you are collecting? Without these questions answered you are far from anything Peter Lembcke is doing, even though it might feel just the same.


Greetings, Jakob.
 
I understand microchips have been used in a limited way with some amphibians. Because of the thin skin insertion is difficult,( I believe the axolotl colony used or use it) but it does then allow absolute identification of the individual.
 
I think it´s fantastic that you are interested in data collection and toying with the idea of research, Seth, seriously, kuddos to you, but you should consider alternative projects that do not demand such intrusive techniques. There might be other things you can do to satisfy your curiosity and your desire to venture into scientific data collection. As others have pointed out for the data to have any real value, it gets much more complicated than what you think and if you are going to obtain data that has no real value other than your personal satisfaction and your training, it should be something that has no impact or a trully trivial one on the animals.
 
In regards to epicbattles post, like froggy said, after one shedding it would not be there, thanks for the suggestion though.

in regards to froggys post, Visible Implant Elastomer was brought up in a different post by me, but, another mod said that that should be left to the professionals, and I think that is wise so I will not do that.

In regards to methodiks post, I am collecting data for a few reasons. 1. because I want to and I think it is a good training practice. 2. because I want to know specifics about the Amphibians around my area. I do most of my herping with in a few miles of my house so this data is like specific locality data, and it could be used some day. and 3. because there is always new info on Amphibians coming in that has never been described before. I talked to a herpetologist recently ( through this site ) that said that they found a bark eating tadpole that lives in trees. If things that far out have been discovered than why could I not discover something, or you or anyone else? To me this is a lifetime hobby, and maybe even a career, and I am not going to give this up, why not start now? I think I am perfectly capable of getting good info. Just my thoughts.

In regards to oceanblues post, I consider this similar to Elastomer ( because it requires putting it under the skin ) so I will not do this, I have no experience with it.

In I regards to Azhaels post, thank you. It is much appreciated!

So, is there a way to tag etc. that does not harm/cause pain to the animal? If so couldn't I do that? I don't see why not personally.

-Seth
 
sde said:
In regards to methodiks post, I am collecting data for a few reasons. 1. because I want to and I think it is a good training practice. 2. because I want to know specifics about the Amphibians around my area. I do most of my herping with in a few miles of my house so this data is like specific locality data, and it could be used some day. and 3. because there is always new info on Amphibians coming in that has never been described before. I talked to a herpetologist recently ( through this site ) that said that they found a bark eating tadpole that lives in trees. If things that far out have been discovered than why could I not discover something, or you or anyone else? To me this is a lifetime hobby, and maybe even a career, and I am not going to give this up, why not start now? I think I am perfectly capable of getting good info. Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

1. Is not a reason to want it, but your will itself. Training for what?
2. What specifics do you want to know, what is "specific locality data" and most importantly how do you think it could be used one day? See, I could also punch everyone in subway in the face and use it for a sociological essay. You have to be much more clear of the consequences and aims of your work, especially with means that are quite an invasion.
3. I dont see how that is related to your idea of tagging the animals. Nothing against finding out more about salamanders, but you'd have to at least have a thesis what your means are good for. I will go to central america searching for Amphibians myself next year and hopefully combine it with some herpetological work for my bachelor thesis, so I strongly agree: you sure can discover something, why not!
However, at least with means that are of an invasional kind you should have a clear idea what your methods is going to prove or disprove. That is why I mean you don't work scientifically: you are mostly relying on chance (that something can be done with or seen in your results from the tagging), driven by your will (which has no scientific basis, but reasons with "I want"). If you change that, with your enthusiasm, I see no reason why you should not try to make it a career.

Greetings from a fellow(!) herper ;)
Jakob
 
1. Training for a herpetological career, I am going to be a herpetologist, you can bet your bottom dollar on that ;).

2.I would love to know the numbers of the amphibian population in my area. Specific locality data: I mean like specific data for a X number of square miles etc.. I think that if I got the numbers etc. I could use that to fight marsh/wetland/amphibian habitat development/destroying. See there is a lot of developing where I am, everything is turning to shopping strips and stores etc. and I hate what I am seeing! They used to have signs up that said "protected wetland area" and now their making a restaurant out of that "protected wetland area". P.S. I would love to see a video of you punching people for an essay :p.
3. Yes, I see your point. But couldn't I find new stuff about traveling habits etc. of sals if I knew where I found them and then compared that to where I find them the next time? Maybe not.

I would like to clear once and fore all that I AM NOT GOING TO DO TOE CLIPPING! That was merely a suggestion brought up by another mod that I wanted to know what you guys thought. After a few posts you guys made it clear that you disapproved, and so I decided not too. Now in a post previously I misspelled not, instead I said sot, I am sorry if that confused anyone.

Now, is there anything wrong with tagging etc. an animal if it causes no harm? I don't see why there would be. So again, does anyone know a way to tag an animal without harming it? -Seth
 
Though I am not intimately familiar with the laws in Washington, activities such as this typically require approval and permitting by state wildlife authorities. State governments typically have authority over all wildlife in their state, regardless of whose property it is on. If you are physically marking any animal, I'd suggest you contact them to avoid breaking the law (and leaving evidence which could be used against you in a public forum). Photographing individuals is probably your only non-invasive option.

Though I understand that your intentions are good, your best bet might be to get in touch with a local research institution that has legitimate, permitted projects going on. A graduate student might love some help in the field by a dedicated and interested individual, and you could learn the techniques you mention from trained experts.
 
taherman said:
Though I am not intimately familiar with the laws in Washington, activities such as this typically require approval and permitting by state wildlife authorities. State governments typically have authority over all wildlife in their state, regardless of whose property it is on. If you are physically marking any animal, I'd suggest you contact them to avoid breaking the law (and leaving evidence which could be used against you in a public forum). Photographing individuals is probably your only non-invasive option.

I have never heard of this before, I obviously don't want to get in trouble with the law. Thank you for notifying me of this!

Though I understand that your intentions are good, your best bet might be to get in touch with a local research institution that has legitimate, permitted projects going on. A graduate student might love some help in the field by a dedicated and interested individual, and you could learn the techniques you mention from trained experts.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the recommendation! I will look into that, I really appreciate it taherman!
-Seth
 
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