Substrate for background.

[JWERNER]

Hey, I have been doing diy backgrounds out of dry lock and great stuffs and it works great. I leave it a rocky facade with some detail.

I never really had luck with coco fiber or peat glued on.

I see lots of great terrariums out and I just thought I would ask a question of those of you here that use substrates on your backgrounds.

Whats the best way to make it stick? I use silicone but it really dont stick in the end.

Do you just wad on silicone in huge amounts as fast as you can and try to cover it quickly or section at a time?

Do you use peat. or coco fiber?

Let me hear everyone's input.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

Personally, I find the use of coir substrates as a coating for backgrounds problematic. These products will wall off due to decay over time, especially in the relatively humid enclosures required for amphibians. Many folks, including myself, have used the expanding urethane foams as a base for these substrates, but between the constant leaching of toxic volatile organic compounds, the instability of the product over time, and the expense of these products, I have dumped using them altogether.

While silicone can be used, it is far too thick to be worth the trouble in my opinion. Water-proof aquaculture epoxies are superior, but expensive and hard to get. Urethane based glues like Gorilla Glue work exceedingly well, but require a bit of practice.

Generally speaking, I use silicone adhesives for bark and rock. I am currently experimenting with that "As Seen on TV" product called Uglu. It is superb to adhere flat surfaces to glass. It also seems to work well for light weight cork bark, however I will withhold endorsing the product for vivaria use until the experimental enclosure is at least six months old. (Well that and you better have the right equipment to make a flat surface on a rock, like a diamond saw rated for granite!)

Truth be told, my preferred backgrounds now are simply a thick coating of matte black spray-paint on the exterior side of the back of the tank. Then, after a bit of work with a diamond saw and some aquarium rated silicone (used because it has the highest tensile strength and best adhesion to glass of most readily available products) or Gorilla Glue, I then attach the stone directly to the glass. This results in this look:

(Neurergus kaiseri enclosure for adults featuring live plants and real limestone.)

I also am a huge advocate of Styrofoam structures coated with concrete as seen around this site and FrogForum.

Peat should (with very, very few exceptions) never be used in vivaria for amphibians as the extremely low pH causes serious health issues and in many cases death of the caudates housed.

 

[JWERNER]

Thanks.

By aquaculture epoxies are you talking about the type that is used for Reef Rock and such. I find that would be so expensive IMO it wouldnt even be part of the equation.

Some resources say that the Great Stuff that expands the most ( black can ) is the exact same as the 3m stuff for aquarium and ponds ( black foam ).

Im familiar with all the techniques now, its just the coco fiber/peat/fern mulch that I cant get the hang of. I always choose silicone over Gorilla glue. I just hate Gorilla Glue and it hardly ever holds anything the way I would like it to.

The problem with mortar mix backgrounds is PH. They are awesome for fish tanks that require high PH like my Tanganyikans but if I would ever take that tank down I would not be able to use it for much else do to the PH.

Drylock works great, probably the best, but Im just tired of the rock look.

My problem is the silicone/caulk.

It either never holds anything down or it takes days and days for some spots to dry. They stay like a putty.

I did find a good one by DAP lastnight that I gave a test shot. It still kinda stays like a putty in thick spots but it holds a peat/chopped sphagnum mix I made pretty well.

It goes on nice also. Its almost like pudding and its brown.

 

[Mac Myers]

That is fantastic. :happy:

 

[Joost]

Peat should (with very, very few exceptions) never be used in vivaria for amphibians as the extremely low pH causes serious health issues and in many cases death of the caudates housed.

I use peat for many years for terrestrial caudates (T. marmoratus, T. shanjing, T. kweichowensis), as well for frogs (Mantella's), and have never had problems with peat. In fact because of the low Ph it works anti bacterial and and against fungus.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

By aquaculture epoxies are you talking about the type that is used for Reef Rock and such. I find that would be so expensive IMO it wouldnt even be part of the equation. I agree 100%.

The problem with mortar mix backgrounds is PH. They are awesome for fish tanks that require high PH like my Tanganyikans but if I would ever take that tank down I would not be able to use it for much else do to the PH. Untrue. When you use an acrylic fortifier and the proper type of hydraulic cement, there is no pH issue. For fully aquatic applications, I use a matte finish urethane sealer over top the finished product in addition. Search for "Tapecrete" and "Acrylic fortifier" here on the forums, and you will find a number of threads detailing the technique. I speak from experience with close to a dozen vivaria constructed by this method in the last year or so. pH, TDS and hardness issues have never been observed. The real problem is algae growth. Just like real rock, it is very hard to remove if you get it.

The secret with Gorilla Glue and similar products is that a little bit goes a long, long way. I agree with you though, it is tricky to work with.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

I use peat for many years for terrestrial caudates (T. marmoratus, T. shanjing, T. kweichowensis), as well for frogs (Mantella's), and have never had problems with peat. In fact because of the low Ph it works anti bacterial and and against fungus.

I caution against peat as it is a word used to name a few very different products. I also caution against it as many less experienced keepers can and will have serious issues with it. (I myself have a few peat based enclosures!) It also depends on the species kept with it. Ambystomids in particular are very sensitive to low pH.

 

[JWERNER]

I read on people using that for aquariums also with the cement.


I usually start with a layer of Krylon flat black to get all the deep spaces and add more effect and mix Drylock with Concrete dye and brush that on.

I think I will do that next for a Viv and add some type of soil like substrate in the same way as with silicone and see how that happens. A few different shades of brown and grey below the coir or what have you would blend well.

 

[JWERNER]

I caution against peat as it is a word used to name a few very different products. I also caution against it as many less experienced keepers can and will have serious issues with it. (I myself have a few peat based enclosures!) It also depends on the species kept with it. Ambystomids in particular are very sensitive to low pH.

Well, Im only using it now cause its what I had and Im only using it on the background. Im still trying to find cheap coir or something similar in bulk.

I might make a good mix for the substrate but the background should be fine in regards to any PH problems..



.

 

[Mac Myers]

I too have used peat in my substrate mix for Dart Frogs and Mantellas. Mostly covered with Pillow Moss however.

 

[JWERNER]

Yeah, I assume it really is only a danger for fossorial animals that dig and burrow into the substrate more so any others.