T. kweichowensis dissection pics -- new imports update

It'll have to wait until I get back to work, so I can try and get the ssp direction but this is what my notes say from a conversation and e-mails I had with Kevin in 2002 and 2003. They "keep" them between 65 and 72 F and that they appear to do well in the low 70s as a matter of course but for reproduction they need to be kept at 65 F for a couple of months and then moved up to 75 F to get reproduction. They are kept at 75 for as long as necessary to get oviposition and then are slowly dropped back to 72 and then down over a course of months if the decision is to breed them.

There are some risks to keeping them warmer that need to be taken into consideration.
Such as fact that recent imports lack any fat bodies and keeping them at the higher temps increase the metabolic needs of the animal increasing the risk of refeeding syndrome.


Ed
 
Paris,
If you are getting better survivorship at the warmer temps have you considered getting them tested for chytrid??
Ed

(Message edited by Ed on July 29, 2005)
 
The reasoning for getting them tested for chytrid (a fungus) is that this might become a bigger issue if the animals are kept at higher temps?
Just trying to learn as much as possible from all of this
happy.gif
 
ed,
were talking about the shanjings -right? these i have had for about a year now, how long does it take to get good fat on them? (many of those kweis that looked healthy enough and robust enough had zilch in the fat department-so how do i know if i have succeeded in getting mine into the safe zone?-bloodwork?)
yes i do not plan to keep them at the higher temps for much longer-i have yet to see any direct signs of stress though, 3 even are semi aquatic, my idea on moving them to the warmer temps was to get them to lay, it did result in one female depositing a clutch of duds, but since then no more-i was fearing if i moved them back to the 65/70 range that the other fems may hold on to those eggs, and egg retention is a very real problem that i do worry about.

they did not do bad at the 65-70 range, they just are better eaters in the higher ones, and obviously more active, it was just the one that made a drastic improvement when i moved them.

as for chytrid, that is an easy test isnt it if one knows what to look for? i think it can be done with just a slide rubbed across the skin (perhaps adding some stain) and looking for the cysts, right?

any input you can offer will greatly be appreciated by me and others, since much data available to us 'commoners' is iffy at best, best source is people like you who are in the know.

ps...chyrid, it wont survive autoclaving at 121 C right? (i know some prions will), is my standard method of dish soap , rinse , bleach, rinse, dry fully, a good enough procedure to avoid contamination?
 
 
Hi Paris,

The way your post reads it sounds like you are keeping all of the Tylototritons at the warmer temp based on the information you had on shanjing not just the shanjing. Was this a misinterpretation on my part??
Chytrid is usually not the same level of problem at warmer temps so if any amphibians that would normally be kept at lower temperatures show decreased mortality at higher temps then I would also consider chytrid as a possible source/influence of/on the mortality.
Typically with regard to the lack of fat bodies, you would feed the amphibians no more than 10% of their metabolic requirement per day for a minimum of two weeks at which time the amount offered at each feeding is slowly increased each week.
As I understand it, late stage chytrid can be determined via the skin scraping but samples typically need to be taken from the underside (better in anurans) and the feet in caudates. There is a PCR test that is much more accurate to use and can accurately diagnose chytrid in much earlier stages.
However given that there now appears to be a second type of fungus that is also now spreading through areas causing mortality and it is even more important to get histology slides performed on new imports that die for no real reason.

Ed
 
Hi Ed,

What is the second fungus?

Thanks,

Mike
 
ed,
yeah, sorry, only the shanjings are at my house (the warmer temps), the kwie's are about 66 and talaingensis are at about 70, (one is closer to the ac and on the floor), here is a link to a pic of the taliangensis-since i have not seen pics of fatter ones i am not sure if they are at ideal weight, i am tempted to move them to higher temps based on how well the shanjings have done, but i am always willing to listen to advice from those who have more experience with these guys.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/985/37316.html?1118286341
 
Hi Mike,
I haven't had time to track that down as of yet and it may not be identified as of yet. But at least in Central and Northern South America, anurans (only ones tested as far as I know) have shown symptoms and mortality normally associated with chytrid (including fungal elements in the skin) but on testing does not come out to be chytrid...

That is all I know at the moment.

Ed
 
Ed:
If you learn any more about this so far unknown fungus will you keep us updated please? This thread has been very helpful in learning more about newts.

Paris:
Thanks for posting those links.
 
Hi Paris,

Well, if they appear to be underweight then I would be concerned about warming them as this could potentially trigger breeding behavior or physiological changes that the animals can't support (such as yolking up).

Ed
 
so you think 70-72 is ideal for getting weight on them? ive got the kweis with me right now at work along with some stool samples, i saw some stuff the other day but have nothing to check it against, need to go home and get my cam so i can get shots of some of this stuff. part of my problem is that im not sure how to differentiate the stage of lung worm that will be in the fecal s, the thin egg version is easier but by the time they pass through the gut they are past that. i have to bathe the samples in ethanol because there is some pretty active stuff in there that i need to immobilize to see.
 
Hi Paris,

If they are underweight and are cooler than 70-72 then I would be cautious about moving them up to that temperature and if they are already are at 70-72 then they are close to the temps required to stimulate breeding behavior/yolking and would need to be monitored to prevent them from being exposed to those temperatures.

With respect to the fecals, how are you planning to differentiate between the lungworm eggs/larva and the harmless nematode eggs found in earthworms or for example soil nematodes?

Ed
 
ed,
ahh, im not-im going to send the pictures on to my vet. i do note however a very coiled nematode in the fecals, i plan on taking many pictures of the curiosities i see in there and forwarding them on to her, although i can also do some net searching. i also plan on taking fecal samples from my feeder insects to see what is normally in them.(i usually buy the same brand of worms). if i did saliva swabs then the eggs might be able to be seen there, i am told this is when they are easiest to distinguish, this will have to wait till next week as i have finals this week and they seem to be as stable as they have been for the past year.
 
Hi Paris,

Typically species identification in nematodes requires an adult form and earthworms are full of nematodes regardless of your source and if we have an animal that gets fed worms we need to tell them before they run the fecal otherwise it will come back positive for nematodes..(and our staff sees a lot of these fecals....)
If you want to eliminate the risk of false positives feed an alternate food source for at least a week (and preferably) before performing a fecal check (or freeze the worm for at least two weeks before feeding it out to the newts (although I don't know what that would do to the worm's consistency). (soaked pieces of repto-min may be a good alternative).
I would suspect salivary swabs to be inaccurate to determining contamination as
1) the eggs from the lungworms should be swallowed at the back of the throat and a swab of the mouth would probably miss them
2) foods items like worms are likely to shed eggs/larva etc into the mouth during the swallowing process and you may be sampling the residue

Ed
 
i like the idea of the reptomin, unfortunately they dont...so being the clever monkey i am
crazy.gif
i realized that those food sticks are nothing but dried fish/wheat paste so i rehydrated them and put it into a large needleless syringe and injected this mixture into their mouths i plan on feeding them this mixture to them for 10 days, during which they will get their second panacure treatment and after that i will get a fecal done then.
 
Good going, though this is all a bit advanced for me to follow very well
smile6.gif


I just wanted to mention that my vet (who I haven't had cause to see in ages, thankfully) also uses Reptomin for tube feeding of amphibians.

By the way, there are over 40 posts in this thread now, so you might consider continuing the discussion on a new thread up at some point for the ease of people with slow Internet connections
wink.gif
I recall Nate, for example, facing such difficulty in the past.

(Message edited by TJ on August 04, 2005)
 
Paris,
On occasion I feed Reptomin to offer variety. It is somewhat time consuming but the method that I use is to initially soak the pellets for about a minute. Afterwards I drain off the excess water and then leave the pellets in open air for about an hour or two (this allows them to stiffen up somewhat without losing too much moisture). I then forcep feed each individual. Most of the Tylo's snap them right up however some individuals will turn away. As a side note, about five years ago I raised some Triturus (marmoratus and alpestris-2 of which I later found out came from you) and all individuals (about 9) eagerly accepted Reptomin in the above mentioned fashion.
Chip
 
I know a Japanese caudate enthusiast -- Kei, who occasionally visits this site -- who swears by Reptomin and feeds it to his newts as their staple food.

I still have a stockpile of old-formula Reptomin from when I had an aquatic turtle, and I guess I should start offering it to my Cynops for variety (they're now fed almost exclusively vitamin-fortified frozen bloodworm, though they sometimes get Hikari goldfish pellets).

I haven't tried feeding Reptomin to my Tylotriton but will give it a shot tonight and post the result. Thanks for the info!

Anybody know the difference between the old and new formulas? (at least the formula changed here in Japan a couple of years ago...)
 
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