Tanks Freeze Over!

[Neotenic_Jaymes]

This is usually what happens to a lot of my tanks in my basement. I've had some tanks freeze over and stay like that for 2 months. Usually from late December to mid February I can expect ice in some of my tanks. I can manipulate how much ice or how cold it gets in my basement by cracking or closing the window. At this point some species barely move and surprisingly some are still active. Some species still take food if I feed them. I usually don't feed much or at all during this time. Necturus, Psuedotriton, Itchyosaura, Triturus, Paramesotriton, are some species that still remain active or somewhat active and still eat.

 

[Molch]

fascinating. How about breathing? Don't they suffocate under the ice?

also, be careful the ice won't crack your tank. That happened to one of mine once (there were no critters in it at the time)

 

[merk199]

Thats kind of cool. I would be to worried I would freeze the house's water pipes to do it myself.

 

[Neotenic_Jaymes]

fascinating. How about breathing? Don't they suffocate under the ice?

also, be careful the ice won't crack your tank. That happened to one of mine once (there were no critters in it at the time)

Actually they don't suffocate. If that was the case I'd had lost more than half my collection. I'm sure the newts know how to reserve themselves. Either they shutdown some body functions to save energy and air or they are acquiring air another way. Maybe absorbing air through their skin from the water. This is a annual event and I never lose animals from the ice. Not to mention I've found newts and other amphibians even reptiles in ponds under ice during winter herping.

 

[Kaysie]

Also, cold water holds significantly more oxygen than warm water.

 

[Molch]

Actually they don't suffocate. If that was the case I'd had lost more than half my collection. I'm sure the newts know how to reserve themselves. Either they shutdown some body functions to save energy and air or they are acquiring air another way. Maybe absorbing air through their skin from the water. This is a annual event and I never lose animals from the ice. Not to mention I've found newts and other amphibians even reptiles in ponds under ice during winter herping.

true - I'd still be careful. In a small body of water like an aquarium, dissolved oxygen could become depleted quickly. I know that even in some wild populations some winter mortality of larvae under the ice can be due to depleted oxygen levels...

still, I think it's cool.

 

[Kaysie]

It's not cool; it's ice-cold.

/joke.

 

[Neotenic_Jaymes]

true - I'd still be careful. In a small body of water like an aquarium, dissolved oxygen could become depleted quickly. I know that even in some wild populations some winter mortality of larvae under the ice can be due to depleted oxygen levels...

still, I think it's cool.

Most the tanks have many plants in them. Thank you for your concerns. I'll keep an eye on everything. I'll say everything is fine for now. Cold water, plants and small numbers of newts in each tank. I'm cautious but not worried!

 

[Molch]

I'm actually really glad you posted this - I've always been paranoid that if my heat goes out and I'm away fro a couple days my tanks would get an ice layer and the newts would die. Now I see that they can survive such an event...it's never happened of course, but paranoid minds will worry about it.

 

[Terroricha]

Not surprising. Notopthalamus and Taricha have been observed in the wild swimming around under the ice. Their metabolism slooooowwwws doooowwwwn in the cold water and so long as their tissues dont freeze, they survive. Some amphibians get ~50% of their oxygen needs through their skin under normal conditions, let alone when it is cold.

The water that does not freeze is around 4 degrees celcius, not freezing. Moreover, the solute concentration in their tissues drops the freezing point, so their tissues have to be a few degrees below 0 C in order to freeze.

Heck, some reptiles--like american alligators--can survive in air so long as the temp does not drop below 4 degrees. They will keep a hole open for breathing in the ice--if ice is there-- and on warm winter days will come out of the water (which, under the ice is exactly 4 degrees C) to bask. In the middle of winter.

The unfrozen water is 4 C because that is the temperature at which water is the most dense. Unlike a lot of compounds, the density of water does not increase linearly with temperature. Instead it drops in density until the water is 4 C, then as it starts to freeze, density goes back up slightly due to hydrogen bonding. In winter, this means that the water that is below 4 C rises to the top and freezes. Everything else is 4 C, because that water sinks below the ice.

 

[Kaysie]

I've got a video of a Noto swimming under the ice. I don't know where I put it...

 

[Ken Worthington]

Not surprising. Notopthalamus and Taricha have been observed in the wild swimming around under the ice. Their metabolism slooooowwwws doooowwwwn in the cold water and so long as their tissues dont freeze, they survive. Some amphibians get ~50% of their oxygen needs through their skin under normal conditions, let alone when it is cold.

The water that does not freeze is around 4 degrees celcius, not freezing. Moreover, the solute concentration in their tissues drops the freezing point, so their tissues have to be a few degrees below 0 C in order to freeze.

Heck, some reptiles--like american alligators--can survive in air so long as the temp does not drop below 4 degrees. They will keep a hole open for breathing in the ice--if ice is there-- and on warm winter days will come out of the water (which, under the ice is exactly 4 degrees C) to bask. In the middle of winter.

The unfrozen water is 4 C because that is the temperature at which water is the most dense. Unlike a lot of compounds, the density of water does not increase linearly with temperature. Instead it drops in density until the water is 4 C, then as it starts to freeze, density goes back up slightly due to hydrogen bonding. In winter, this means that the water that is below 4 C rises to the top and freezes. Everything else is 4 C, because that water sinks below the ice.

Interesting post, Terroricha, thanks for explaining :happy:

 

[Molch]

The unfrozen water is 4 C because that is the temperature at which water is the most dense. Unlike a lot of compounds, the density of water does not increase linearly with temperature. Instead it drops in density until the water is 4 C, then as it starts to freeze, density goes back up slightly due to hydrogen bonding. In winter, this means that the water that is below 4 C rises to the top and freezes. Everything else is 4 C, because that water sinks below the ice.

not necessarily. This is true only in deeper ponds/lakes, where some water may still stay that warm and sink to the bottom. Water further up in the water column will be colder. The water I get from under the ice every winter is pretty much right at 0 degrees C

 

[Ken Worthington]

The water I get from under the ice every winter is pretty much right at 0 degrees C

I've seen the pictures, and I had to put my hat and gloves on just sitting here at my keyboard

 

[Terroricha]

not necessarily. This is true only in deeper ponds/lakes, where some water may still stay that warm and sink to the bottom. Water further up in the water column will be colder. The water I get from under the ice every winter is pretty much right at 0 degrees C

You wont have a very large amount of water at that temperature. In a tank, perhaps. In nature that water will probably freeze, as the outside temp drops lower. This is dependent on depth of course, but if I remember properly, those newts that overwinter in the water (N. viridescens does both, depending on where in its range you are) do so in deep water. Of course you also probably have a decent amount of dissolved ions which will lower the freezing point etc.

I dont know the critical thermal minimum for newt metabolism... though I can check. Still T. granulosa ranges up into southeast alaska. I cannot imagine the lowest temp they can survive is significantly above freezing. It may even be lower if they can keep their tissues from being perforated by ice crystals like wood frogs can.

 

[Molch]

Still T. granulosa ranges up into southeast alaska. I cannot imagine the lowest temp they can survive is significantly above freezing. It may even be lower if they can keep their tissues from being perforated by ice crystals like wood frogs can.

T.granulosa does indeed live in SE Alaska. However, those parts have a very mild maritime climate, comparable to Seattle or Vancouver and the Pacific NW. There's no permafrost down there, so any newt hibernating on land wouldn't have any trouble finding frost-free refugia under the ground.

 

[Jennewt]

This is an interesting discussion, and I'm glad you posted the photos. Getting caudates truly cold is surely one of the keys to breeding, and I admire your willingness to do what it takes.

But I do have to throw in a few more words of caution. First, I know someone who lost some animals (aquatic Tylototriton) due to freezing; I do not know how solidly frozen the tanks were when this happened. Second, there are some species that I think would NOT tolerate this, such as Cynops ensicauda and undoubtedly some others. I don't want the readers out there to think that this would OK for all newts.

What is the species in the 5th photo?

 

[Kaysie]

Jenn, I'm pretty sure that's his Pseudotriton ruber tank.

 

[Terroricha]

T.granulosa does indeed live in SE Alaska. However, those parts have a very mild maritime climate, comparable to Seattle or Vancouver and the Pacific NW. There's no permafrost down there, so any newt hibernating on land wouldn't have any trouble finding frost-free refugia under the ground.

True, but that will depend on where they over-winter (On land, in water etc), I dont have data for that region. In the southern/lower elevation parts of their range they seem to over-winter on land. Up father north/at higher elevation they seem to do so in the water. I am not sure specifically about that area though. I grew up in Fairbanks, but I was just a little chicken when I left and dont remember the climate that well. Still, I did look up the lowest recorded water temperature at which they have been found in nature. -1 degree C, probably unfrozen due to dissolved ions. Again, I would imagine they can survive lower, but there have been no tests of their critical thermal min that I can find (the max though is apparently 36, for animals acclimated to 20 C... at which point many of the proteins in their nervous system and musculature denature and they lose their righting reflex).