"Tylototriton" andersoni in the States

Hi all
Well, that Trader would have serious problems here in germany,.......

that WC sellout is a shame.
those animals aren't taliangensis and surely no E.andersoni,.....:D
So, some corrupt "hobbyists" have new "friends" to suck shoes now,.......
Also quite punk,.........
Maybe, i have to get some dogs,......
Greets,
 
philipp -your message is a bit cryptic and reads a bit like free form poetry (translation software issue?) - who are these corrupt hobbiests you are referring to?
 
Philipp's English is always like that, but I think I can divine some of his intended meaning and I agree with him to some degree (the bit I can understand).

Those are definitely wenxianensis (not asperrimus or the "usual four" Tylos, nor are they Echinos).

Regarding these imports, I've got mixed feelings on them. I very much hope this "pillaging" of Chinese herpetofauna ceases soon - these species are all in captivity now in several places and further stocks shouldn't be required to establish viable captive populations.

What disturbs me most is that Echinotriton andersoni are finding their way into the pet trade still - as far as I'm aware, this species was given full protection from collection recently and so it shouldn't be showing up on wholesaler lists.

It's all rather disturbing. I also think that if the people who acquire these animals (and have acquired them in the past) were to admit how many die in their possession, we would realise that most people really shouldn't have these wildcaught animals because they usually require highly specialist initial care. Even if the animals survive in captivity, few ever breed and those that do breed generally only do so for a handful of specialists (few are well-known, but you might be surprised at how many people like this there really are). Consequently, should they survive entry into captivity, the animals live out their short lives unproductively in a hobbyist's collection.

Oh before I continue, currently I would classify myself as one of the hobbyists, not the specialists (18 dead out of 20 wildcaught Tylototriton makes me the Tylototriton answer to the grim reaper).

I believe that the hobbyists should hold off on acquiring wildcaught animals and let the specialists do their magic. A few years from now we shouldn't have any problems acquiring these animals as captive bred offspring. That's such a short time away.

(Message edited by john on July 30, 2004)
 
Thanks John, really.
Well Paris, some persons shopping-, and "animals i do have at home"-lists, are like stocklists of pettraders,........
That heavy consumption is the best way to keep that catastrophy of wc sellouts running,.....
I agree with john. Hobbyists should stay hobbzists and shouldn't become collectors.
"i buy ten, to have two survivours in the end",
isn't a way of starting captive populations and breeding groups. At least not the one, I do like to see,....
And yes, i do start to hate those traders, that are responsible for the actual situation.
I also can't understand, why they're sold in the u.s., where the knowledge about the genus,
isn't that wide-spread.
having wcs in small numbers, was at least tolerable. but now, the numbers go in the hundreds dimension,...
that's sick. and i'm not the one, looking for the animals in best conditions, when there are some to take care of.But most people do buy in that way, and so some animals might have a chance, others don't,...
and i do like free-form poetry, btw.,.......:D
Hungry dogs, hanging around in some merchants faces too,.....
Greets,
 
I heard from (experienced) Dutch keepers that their T. kweichowensis are all dead by now. I still have 9 out of 25 animals left (see message "deworming fatalities")but the remaining animals are not doing well, despite intensive treatment (you might say: leave them alone and don't stress them further but in that case, they all just die). I know that healthy Tylototriton are voracious and extremely hardy animals (I bred T. shanjing and T. verrucosus from wildcaught animals on several occasions) BUT wildcaught animals invariably do not seem to thrive. Interestingly, if some frogs are given a single high dose of cortico steroids, they develop a very prolonged immunosuppression and arrested development. I think that this is exactly the problem with the wildcaught salamanders: extreme stress causing immunosuppression, high parasitic loads and a very high infection pressure of opportunistic bacteria, all of this resulting in diseases that do not occur in healthy, non stressed animals. Actually, we should make a balance one year after importation of salamander species, I am afraid that only very small numbers of animals are still alive (how else would you explain the continuous importations of animals despite the very limited number of people interested in them?). Only for specialists you say John? I don't know, I think that the animals are in a number of cases too messed up, even for the specialist...
 
On a slightly side note here.
Based on my experience with shanjing, if even a small number of the imported animals survive long enough to breed a couple of times the resulting offspring are much easier to reproduce. This should allow sufficient offspring to establish the populations in captivity.
The kweichows I got on loan a couple of months ago are still doing fine and have gained about 15% of their body weight.
I suspect that past shipments were not being picked up (at least in the USA) by the enthusiasts as many shanjing were sold in chain pet stores and were simply impulse buys by the novice consumer.
 
Frank,
As I understand the effects of stress and immunosuppression, it is also possible that by the interventions have pushed the animals over the threshold of survivial.

Are you aware of anyone who got them, set them up to acclimate and has not really messed with them as of yet? Is there a difference in the survivial rate?

Ed
 
hi all do you really need these animals that much thier best left alone. john i sometimes don,t agree with what you say but on this occasion i give you the thumbs up cheers justin
 
The same type of discussion is going on with some of the dart frog keepers. Their is an influx of farm? raised obligate oophages in the U.S. Posters mention how these are difficult to work with and they expect high mortalities. We should stop purchasing these wild caught animals. The funny thing is many of these posters are the ones keeping the animals they tell others they shouldn't.

I see the recent influx of Tylototritons in the U.S. as a rare opportunity for hobbyists to breed these and make captive bred animals available. I would sooner purchase c.b. animals but they simply are not available. With a little research most hobbyists can learn to take care of these animals.
 
There are ven stud books by the AG Urodela (Philip Grundtner is coördinator?) and they have bred different Tylototriton species in the past, so shanjing and verrucosus and even kweichowensis are in captivity and were bred. So they are available just not on a large scale. People who have some patience will eventually get these animals on the long run. Patience would be nice, but as long as people pay for WC animals they will be imported. A trader just thinks of his own wallet. And if you buy them all now by your local trader, there will be a new import the next time he can get animals from a wholesale trader. We keep this thing alive ourselves sadly.
To the import of the Echinotritons (if they truly are that protected) we can try to get this over to societies that have more influence on laws and regulations, like Declining Amphibian Task Force.
 
Hi Ed,

The animals I wrote about from the Dutch keepers were not treated at all, just left alone to acclimate. They are all dead...
 
I got my shanjing about two months ago, I didn't treat them,(exept for one female that I treated with colivet, she healed perfectly), and the're still doing fine. Eating, shedding skin and some males spend quite a lot of time in the water. Maybe just my luck though.
 
Hi Wouter,

seems you are one of the lucky ones who got his animals in a good environment right away. But as I heard you gave them a large tank with all the possibilities to choose for them if they wanted wet, moist or dry environment. Also temperature and food could be of influence. Perhaps a bit of luck, but also some good insight in the animal.
Keep us informed (well, not me, but this group, I see you tomorrow!).
 
Well, actually the shanjing appear to do reasonably well, it is the kweichowensis that I meant. How are things going with imported kweichowensis in other countries?
 
So far, so good with my kweichows. They're eating well and are spending more and more time in the water. Isaiah's animals have produced spermatophores and are spending more time in the water too.
 
So the US import seems to be better than the EU ones? Can we trace back the time of arrival in US and EU? Just to check wether the EU animals were shipped from the same dealer or were perhaps shipped first to the US and then to EU?
 
The U.S. wholesaler I got mine from was out of Florida. Rumors are they get theirs from some large wholesaler in Texas, but of course none of them want to be cut out of the sales so this info could be incorrect, and they sure aren't giving out names of other wholesalers. Judging from the way they try to move animals quickly, mine were recieved June 12th, so I would think they hit the U.S. probably early June

(Message edited by dln on August 03, 2004)
 
Hi Frank,
Do you know how heavily the kweichows you are talking about were fed? I'm curious if they were lost to refeeding syndrome. Were they necropsied and if so how were the conditions of the fat pads?
At work when we have gotten imports like this in, any mortalities frequently were totally lacking fat pads.

Ed
 
Ed,

That is true: in the necropsied animals, fat pads were completely or almost completely lacking. I am waiting for the results of histopathology now and some more testing (e.g. on Mycobacteria and Chlamydiales). It is a strange thing: animals that apparently are in good condition, put alone in 40x20cm² boxes on oak litter, cork and a water basin at 18°C with plenty of food, even at several weeks after acquisition, suddenly develop sores that respond only poorly to treatment. I will keep this forum informed on the results of the post mortem tests.
 
i am familiar with the location of fat pads on frogs from 1 dissection -but i have no idea where to look for fat pads on caudates. do they have only 1 set per side like frogs? do they look like the frog ones?(with the finger like projections?)
 
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