Tylototriton Keepers in the United Kingdom.

TylototritonGuy said:
But not for Private Keepers lol because I don't imagine mine or anyone elses being on this stud book :/
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I assume yes his would only been zoological collections but when I read a copy a lot of them were wild caught. Some zoos also sell there surplus stock to private collections.
Tylototriton is why I am interested in newts and for my dissertation I aim to look at breeding either in the verrucosus or Shanjing
 
One question how would you monitor certain strains of certain tylos
 
Sean90 said:
I assume yes his would only been zoological collections but when I read a copy a lot of them were wild caught. Some zoos also sell there surplus stock to private collections.
Tylototriton is why I am interested in newts and for my dissertation I aim to look at breeding either in the verrucosus or Shanjing
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Ahhh I see, well a majority of them would be WC specimens, mainly for the excuse that they would be used for breeding programes plus the fact that for the UK Tylototriton species aren't hugely bred. I must admit, I don't know any zoo in the UK that has T.kweichowensis, T.wenxianensis, T.taliangensis or anything other rare species on display.. Zoo's do sell some of their stock is sold into the hands of Private Collectors but not a lot at all, and this is mainly done to people that currently have breeding programmes so the zoo can get rid of very closely related stock (if they cannot find a place in another Zoo to do so).
Hmmm, well there are a few people breeding Verrs at the moment but with everything to do with that side of it its a bit of a subject not looked into and researched heavily.
 
Hi Guys I have a slightly different take that you all may relate to. Years ago a grew cacti and several new groups of plants came into the country as imports of habitat collected material. These were expensive and almost impossible to keep alive for long. The ecological niches they had evolved to exploit were impossible to recreate eg the lack of fungal spores in the habitats high light levels etc.They were the nirvarna that everyone wanted difficult with great cudos and very challenging. They were raised and grew with difficulty seeds set and out of the many hundereds a few would survive in cultivation. In tern these were breed and so on . Now these plants grow easily and fast but in doing so we have altered the plants ,they are great to grow but no longer the wild population and as such perhaps not even be suitable for re introduction to bolster endangered wild populations.We have already started along this road with many newts we keep just look at the axies. Breed as many as you can select the best colour forms select them for the charicteristics you want and try to leave as many in the wild as possible. For these newts to survive and breed in a 90 litre tank in our houses we have already altered their genotype. Sorry for the spelling regards KB
 
kettering bloke said:
Hi Guys I have a slightly different take that you all may relate to. Years ago a grew cacti and several new groups of plants came into the country as imports of habitat collected material. These were expensive and almost impossible to keep alive for long. The ecological niches they had evolved to exploit were impossible to recreate eg the lack of fungal spores in the habitats high light levels etc.They were the nirvarna that everyone wanted difficult with great cudos and very challenging. They were raised and grew with difficulty seeds set and out of the many hundereds a few would survive in cultivation. In tern these were breed and so on . Now these plants grow easily and fast but in doing so we have altered the plants ,they are great to grow but no longer the wild population and as such perhaps not even be suitable for re introduction to bolster endangered wild populations.We have already started along this road with many newts we keep just look at the axies. Breed as many as you can select the best colour forms select them for the charicteristics you want and try to leave as many in the wild as possible. For these newts to survive and breed in a 90 litre tank in our houses we have already altered their genotype. Sorry for the spelling regards KB
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Not really sure what your trying to say really, CB populations (Especially Tylototriton) aren't really rehabilitated into the wild as many of them would just be probably re collected and sold into the pet trade again. I haven't actually altered their genotype at all as they are the first of their Captive Line, and they have breed entirely on their own and these are wild specimens (LTC) lol. This idea isnt something for a Reintroduction Breeding Programme as that would cost a hell of a lot of money and would even be approved, in all honesty I dont see anyone reintroducing Tylototriton because of the risk of being collected by people for the Pet Trade all over again, which would be a waste of effort and time unless Tylototriton Species are put into a Reintroduction Breed Programme (which I dont think they are).

I would write out what this Documenting idea is for, however I have written it several times now so please read the original post and the other posts, please :)
 
I think the gist is, that maintaining and breeding in captivity provides selective pressures we are generally unaware of and which are different from the selective pressures in the wild. Even without specifically choosing color, size, etc., the water chemistry, diet, light and temperature regime of captivity all impose selective pressures different from the wild. As a result, organisms produced in captivity will almost certainly be evolutionarily distinct from their wild kin over the long term.

From the perspective of salamanders in captivity, I think that for the most part the longevities and time required for maturation will minimize this for the forseeable future. Over the longer term, those changes will happen, but they can probably be offset so long as WC animals can be added to the gene pool. Offset, not negated - the genetic and evolutionary changes will occur in both populations, so the addition of one to the other will only maximize diversity and dilute the changes.
 
That was exactly my point, earlier, FrogEyes, thank you for putting it much better.

I have a serious problem with kettering bloke´s ending remark. That´s exactly what i was trying to address in my previous post when i said "this is for those latch on to...bla bla". Sure, selective pressures ARE different, and captive populations will diverge. That however doesn´t mean that you can therefore do whatever you want.
The problem we are experiencing in the hobby in terms of bad breeding is precisely because of that mindset of "select what you want"...that DOESN¨T work. You are selecting for individual mutations for purely cosmetic reasons (sometimes with deleterious consequences that are tolerated in favor of the cosmetic trait), entirely ignoring everything else that you are selecting for and fixing it in a lineage. It also demands a higher incidence of inbreeding. This kind of artifitial selection is ridiculous, stupid and inmoral. It ends up in disaster every time, and it´s the animals that pay all the relevant consequences. This is the kind of superfitial, ignorant, miopic breeding that has produced things like gibber canaries, pugs, spider ball pythons, etc... Just select for what you want, and the welfare of the animal be damned!
I can´t express how disgusting and inmoral i find that to be...

The whole point of this thread is that that kind of superfitial selection doesn´t work, at all, and better alternatives are required, starting with registries to minimize inbreeding.

I´m sorry if i sound aggressive, but that phrase "Breed as many as you can select the best colour forms select them for the charicteristics you want" was like a kick in the nuts with steel boots....
 
Azhael said:
I have a serious problem with kettering bloke´s ending remark. That´s exactly what i was trying to address in my previous post when i said "this is for those latch on to...bla bla". Sure, selective pressures ARE different, and captive populations will diverge. That however doesn´t mean that you can therefore do whatever you want.
The problem we are experiencing in the hobby in terms of bad breeding is precisely because of that mindset of "select what you want"...that DOESN'T work. You are selecting for individual mutations for purely cosmetic reasons (sometimes with deleterious consequences that are tolerated in favor of the cosmetic trait), entirely ignoring everything else that you are selecting for and fixing it in a lineage. It also demands a higher incidence of inbreeding. This kind of artifitial selection is ridiculous, stupid and inmoral. It ends up in disaster every time, and it´s the animals that pay all the relevant consequences. This is the kind of superfitial, ignorant, miopic breeding that has produced things like gibber canaries, pugs, spider ball pythons, etc... Just select for what you want, and the welfare of the animal be damned!
I can´t express how disgusting and inmoral i find that to be...

The whole point of this thread is that that kind of superfitial selection doesn´t work, at all, and better alternatives are required, starting with registries to minimize inbreeding.

I´m sorry if i sound aggressive, but that phrase "Breed as many as you can select the best colour forms select them for the charicteristics you want" was like a kick in the nuts with steel boots....
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Thank you Azheal, I totally agree with you about the last comment made and it just goes to show that KB's comment was a product of not reading what the thread is about. Selectively breeding for how the animal looks is just simply, wrong, plain and simple and this Document Idea has nothing to do with cosmetically breeding specimens for the colour of its Warts or slightly different pigmentation. That would make us no better than the Pedigree things that sometimes goes on with Dogs.

I do agree with you though.
 
Ok guys So I have come in for some stick on this one and its not my intention of offending anyone. Imagin evolution by selection, your first batch of eggs laid by you wild caught newts. Ask the questions of the 75% that hatch would the same conditions in the wild allow the same indiviuals to hatch. After all they should all have unique genetic make up not identical to any of their siblings.Continue to do this further down the line when you have you first generation up to breeding size perhaps 20% of the original spawning.They have allready undergone a process of selection in one generation you now have the siblings that were best adapted to thrive in the conditions you gave them. By selecting the charicteristics I want I want the stongest largest best coloured healthiest newts. These of course will lay large clutches and have the highest proportion of healthy offspring. Others chose neotenics or albinos as is their right to do so. If you then add wild caught gennes into the gene pool in that same first generation the same pressures will apply and any less suitable genes will be deselected. A "stud book" may allow you to trace blood lines but it wont help you produce the genetic diversity you seek.To keep a market for wc newts where in some areas the local populations have been decimated does not fit easily with me and my hobby. To re introduce as you may gather from my note is not something I would advocate. Sorry again for the spelling Regards KB
 
I understand the process of domestication.
You said "Others chose neotenics or albinos as is their right to do so" and i take issue with that (and not just because the two are not necessarily comparable). Do you have a right to select for albinos if the mutation is associated with, say, lack of eyes or propensity to kinks? A lot fpeople make the mistake of thinking that colour mutations have no other consequences, and even if they eventually realize that many do, they choose to ignore them. You said you want to select not just for colour, but also fitness, but i hope you realize that a lot of people are more than willing to sacrifice fitness in favour of cosmetics.
My point all through my posts has been to show that breeding ethics are essential, and that selecting for superfitial characteristics is unethical because it ignores consequences in favor of rarity and market value.
A lot of people look at animal breeding as a free for all kind of situation, where everything is legitimate because hey, they are your animals.
I think the only way to morally validate our hobby (which is keeping animals in tanks) is not only to offer adequate conditions to the existing captive animals, but also to ensure that our practices guarantee the welfare and survival of future generations.
Breeding solely for superfitial traits, like albinism, and possitively selecting the trait, is as unethical as offering inadequate housing conditions to the animal. It compromises welfare and in extreme cases causes suffering. That´s indefensible from a moral point of view.
Selecting for specific superfitial traits also greatly reduces genetic variability because it greatly increases the numbers of specific lineages and often requires inbreeding for the trait to show at all.

A studbook, if it operates with reducing or controlling inbreeding in mind, certainly can help a great deal in preserving genetic variability. Not favouring aberrants, helps some more.

Oh, and don´t worry, you didn´t offend me, hehe, it´s just that this is a topic i care deeply about and i refuse to let advocacy of colour based selection slide, because it´s EVERYWHERE and almost noone seems to realize how miopic it is and how much damage it can do.
 
Well I think its not objectionable at all to be complaining about selective traits breeding.
I mean people out there in the world simply LOVE those axolotls in so many shapes and colors. So you suggest we go out pointing fingers to nearly all caudate keepers and call them unethical breeding and selective traits supporters? Seriously??!
I think as long some people keep breeding and raising normal individuals I see no problem at all in others doing all the experiments they want, taking in advance two straight rules, this being valid to any species:

1º To not promote suffering or any kind of trouble to the animal's well being.
2º To be responsible with the results you have.

I mean you can do experiments, as long they don't involve to kill adult animals or make them experience pain. Second, if your studying for your own sake some hybridization for example you surely cant go out and have them sold as a new flavored candy to make profit. Obviously the animals shall NOT leave breeders hands. He can opt what to do to them, but no proliferation. Usually they will be used as captives by the breeder or as feeders in young stages or in a bit worst scenario correctly euthanized.

Cheers
 
I'm not trying to be rude, just diplomatic, in saying I think this is getting a little off topic. Everyone is making very valid points and I think this debate could go on forever, but the original purpose of this thread was to create a studbook, for whatever reasons. I suppose that if you do create one it will have to be voluntary decision as to whether tylotriton keepers enter their animals in the studbook.

Have you been thinking any more about whether you're going to create it?

Plus since I have hatched eggs of T. verrucosus :)D) do you mind if I join your group?
 
I refer to the recent posting of descriptions of four new species, two of which were more or less unexpected, to illustrate my concerns about species selection.

To whit - T.lizhenchangi, T.dabienicus, and T.broadoridgus might be registered as T.wenxianensis, T.asperrimus, or T.taliangensis; animals registered as T.shanjing could be T.pseudoverrucosus, T.pulcherrima; those registered as T.verrucosus could include T.shanjing, T.pseudoverrucosus, T.pulcherrima; AND those recorded as T.kweichowensis could well be T.yangi. That's ignoring the undescribed or difficult to identify species. Even the "professionals" participating in such projects for zoos are often behind on taxonomic status. Witness the number who stopped recognizing T.shanjing or blindly accepted its return to T.verrucosus!

One first step is to revise the list to include only identifiable species, AND provide a means for identification of those species. Another is to get people to register, and include in that register some indication of how reliable the ID is. Any cross-matching for breeding needs to be between animals of fairly certain ID. An ID key is certainly doable, but right now is dependant on translating the latest paper. It should also include color illustrations, such as photos, which in most cases might have to come from the researchers themselves. Of course, this is now the sort of endeavor involved in an IUCN studbook...which probably doesn't actually have such a guide for this genus so far.
 
I do believe this may be a good idea but may it just open a can of worms
 
Sorry I'm not adding anything constructive to the thread
But opening a can of worms is always a good thing from a newt's/salamander's point of view!!
:grin:
 
Hi Guys, as it happens Sean is kinda right, i'm the lead keeper of herps at chester zoo, and technically i do manage a european studbook for tylototriton species however i inherited the studbook from someone else who couldn't forward me any of the contacts for the members so the studbook is effectively defunct. In theory the idea would be to establish new studbooks for the ever growing numbers of captive tylototriton to work together to remove the pressure on the already dwindling wild stocks of these species by developing good husbandry and breeding guidelines and to then allow captive bred animals into the market. If anyone would be interested in this then just PM me your email address and the species you work with and i'll try to get studbooks up and running, for now feel free to look at the european studbook foundation web page European Studbook Foundation , and to all those breeding and maintaining Tylototritons, if these beautiful newts ever find themselves facing extinction it will be you guys who keep them going, sadly few zoo's have any caudate expertise and fewer still are working with this genus
Ben
 
I will repeat again - This Idea is NOT for a studbook, it has nothing to do with studbooks as they don't tend to last long enough or get any attention (Hence why there has been a few studbooks I have seen on posted on here that get no attention at all)

This idea is about documentation provided to every buyer (forum user or non forum user) of Tylototriton subspecies for their (the owners) offspring purchased. Which would contain a sort of "Tylototriton Family Tree" which would get added to as time goes by. Containing information about the current offspring ancestors and where they came from originally, which would of course be harder to do with Older Bloodlines but easier with brand new lines that have came into the country recently.

This would prove a much more efficient way than having a Studbook that can only be applied to from this Forum (you aren't thinking of everyone, just members on here and there aren't a great number of keepers in the UK on here), however this does have its downfalls as well, as with every idea.
 
Re: Tylototriton Keepers in the United Kingdom - UPDATE

Hello everyone,

Been a while this I looked at this thread and played around with this idea, but I came up with a Document draft which I have been playing around with lately.

I will say again though just in case people don't read the entire thread, that this document has nothing to do with a Breeding Studbook. These are Paper Documents showing the bloodline of a individual specimen for private keepers/hobbyist's of Tylototriton from the following list:


  • Tylototriton kweichowensis.
  • Tylototriton cf kweichowensis (Maybe known as T.yangi when the document is finally translated).
  • Tylototriton taliangensis
  • Tylototriton wenxianensis
  • Tylototriton shanjing
For the moment I think this list is suitable, however you may notice I haven't included T.verrucosus to this list for many reasons, one being that this year there was a huge flux of young and some of these individuals have been sold on once or twice. Making it hard to know who was the original breeders and if certain specimens are related or not. So, for the moment unless people know where their individuals came from I suggest Verrucosus remain off this little list.

The purpose of this document is to control the breeding of Tylototriton and to stop unnecessary inbreeding, which really isn't needed with the amount of fresh blood imported from China at the moment. The document will contain the following information:


  • Name/Alias of the original breeder.
  • Current/Previous Owner(s) of the current Specimen(s).
  • The Original Parents and Ancestors of the specimen (including Pet Names).
  • The Siblings and individual being kept for this paper.
  • Name(s)/Alias of the Current keepers of the Parents, Ancestors (Grandparents etc), Siblings.
  • Dates proving ages of the entire Family Tree (if possible).

Anyway, I shall upload a photo or file containing the document to see what you think of it.I need to tweak a few things with it first though :)
 
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Any news on the paper document? Also I'm happy to help with the parentship analysis.
 
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