What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by SapphireTigress
I find it terribly sad about the eyeless axies, etc. I hate that those type of genetic deformities in all species are becoming so...popular .
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When did they become popular? Are people all over the globe trying to get their hands on eyeless axolotls all of a sudden? Who is even selling them? I don't think this is true.

I wasnt particularly referring to axies....yet. Hence why I specifically said "ALL species".

However with how prevalent this attitude for something "wild" or "crazy" or "exotic", when the "normal" animals just arent enough, people will pay big bucks for horrible deformities, even to the proven detriment of the animal in many cases... Pugs, Leucistic Texas Rat snakes with "Bug Eyes", and "Bug Eyed" goldfish are just a few examples. Even some "minor" deformities that dont necessarily hurt the animal but are still deformities are sold for a ton of money, such as scaleless snakes, 2 headed snakes, etc etc.

I personally feel its just a matter of time before "eyeless" axies or other deformities become the "New hot thing". There may not be sellers of these deformities in axies right now, but I wont be surprised when they DO become available for sale, since there are SO many unscrupulous breeders out there (of any species), and those people will do anything for money. I mean, isnt that what started this thread in the first place?
 
Which lethal genes are you seeing produced in the hobby? You just said 50% die, isn't that what also happens to Triturus embryos? The surviving 50% are healthy animals that just happen to carry the gene. I know you don't keep axolotls yourself, but I'll let you in on a little secret: Axolotls are EXPLOSIVE breeders. They lay more eggs than the average keeper knows what to do with and they do it at random so most keepers aren't prepared for the shockwave that hits them when they have 500+ hungry mouths swimming around. They die at a young age. If I were an axolotl (and believe me, some days I wish I were) I would much rather die from a genetic disorder than from poor husbandry. In order for a pair to produce pinhead, fluid imbalance or cardiac arrest offspring both parents would need to be heterozygous for that gene. The chances of the average keeper getting their hands on a pair like that and having them breed are not very good. The lethal genes also kill the offspring off at a young age, it's not like little Bobby is buying a pet axolotl at 10cm long and loving his new pet for 5 months until it dies from a lethal genetic disorder. While the axolotls we keep here originate from laboratory stock, those lethal genes are not especially popular even amoung the researchers. Just because they exist doesn't mean the species is damned, it means there is a slim chance that by some twist of fate you could lose larvae to a lethal gene by doing a random cross of two axolotls. The same thing happens with humans, just with different genetic disorders than the axolotls.



Eyes or no eyes, they're MOLE salamanders. They don't need eyes to live life to it's fullest, they're perfectly content in total darkness. Axolotls do have a sense of smell and a lateral line to detect prey, even with eyes, they can't see well.

So, let me see, it´s alright if captive axolotls unnecessarily carry a lethal gene because they breed a lot anyway and 50% of dead offspring is actually a good thing.
Eyes are unnecessary too, so they can go. Mind you, eyes are a very energetically costly organ and if A.mexicanum retains small eyes is because they do have a function, and a sufficiently important one. Otherwise, those eyes´d be gone quick.
What other things can axolotls dispense with? Fertility, eyes...probably the back legs aren´t necessary either....with a good, consistent diet, probably some metabolic pathways for vitamin production or whatnot can be allowed to drift and become non funcional too...

Yeah, i can tell your main interest is welfare.

How are we reducing the genetic variation by breeding color morphs more than if we were just inbreeding normals?
that´d be roughly similar, except that when you breed normals you may be crossing alleles with small variations, but when you produce recessive mutants you only have a single allele being shared by everybody. Also, recessive mutations require a certain degree of inbreeding, whereas normals make no such requirements (if it happens is not because it´s needed, it´s because of neglect, ignorance, apathy, whatever...).Regardless, my critique is not esclusively to morph breeding, is to bad breeding practices in general, as i think it´s clear throughout the thread.


Wow, the same could be said about Atelopus zeteki in captivity or any Triturus sp. newts being kept in the US, or any bearded dragons outside of Australia. Should we not confuse them with what they really are because they've been bred in captivity and are "distinct". If you allow any animal to breed in captivity there is no natural selection, that even includes your little firebelly newts, or whatever you keep. Should we not call them by name any more because they weren't produced in the wild? I mean, just because they look normal doesn't mean anything, those particular animals would not have been produced in the wild because the parents probably wouldn't have met, and even if they did, she could do better than him.
Of course you should call them by name, but you should also make a distinction when that distinction is warranted. Calling domestic axolotls something like Ambystoma mexicanum domestica is not changing the classification, it´s simply recognizing a distinct population.

Albinos exist in the wild, eyeless animals exist in the wild, should we consider them all distinct species because they are different than what you consider normal?

Are you just daft or simply trolling?




Most people working with axolotls have more than just normals, and even if they do have only normals, chances are when those normals breed they produce abnormal offspring like albino, leucistic or others. Those animals are later shared with other enthusiasts who might also have luck getting them to breed and produce even more of them. That's how the hobby works....and that's exactly what you said is psychopathic.

Ok, maybe you didn't directly say that it is psychopathic, you said the actions of those people were psychopathic. It's not much different.

For example, I think your actions are extremely hypocritical and lame.

See? I just called you hypocritical and lame without actually calling you hypocritical and lame....the same way you called all of the axolotl breeders on here psychopaths who lack empathy.
No, the lack of empathy towards animals as it happens with people ignoring or defending obvious and very significant problems (like seeing your spider ball python wobble, or your brachycephalic bulldog fighting to breathe), is what´s worrying and psychopath like (as in if i look at a suffering human and i feel nothing).
I know that´s how the hobby works, and that´s what this whole thread is about. How the hobby works sucks. It doesn´t work long term, it just doesn´t. I make no apologies for calling out everybody who participates of that breeding metholodogy, because it´s harmful. Again, that´s not the same as calling people psychopaths or evil or anything else. Its just saying that in this specific situation, the way they are doing things has negative consequences long term, they should seriously consider modifying their breeding practices. If someone does something harmful (like say, using gravel or housing axolotls with a dozen large goldfish) they should be critisized and shown that there are better choices.


Can you name anything negative that has been linked directly to the white gene IN AXOLOTLS, other than the lack of color? I'd like to see some proof that these white animals' rights are being taken away by people who allow them to breed. So far the only example you've given that pertains specifically to white axolotls is that they are not as "fit" as normals in your opinion (which is a poor example).

Missed the point. The discussion is not limited to axolotls. There are plenty of examples from various species that show how the breeding practices that dominate the hobby are harmful and negatively affect the animals. The same practices are being applied to axolotls, it´s a matter of time until axolotls catch up with the others. If these practices have been shown to be detrimental in other cases, the excuse "but it hasn´t happened large scale with axolotls yet!" is a poor argument. The practices are flawed, that´s what´s being adressed.
 
I can't see the ad in the original post, so I'm going to go off of what I have read. I have to disagree with you on this statement. Wild types are not always the fastest to grow large. I've seen golds, leucistics, white albino, and melanoids grow faster than wild types and vica versa. It depends on the individual, not the color morph

From my experience wild types have a faster growth rate, that is not to say that in a mixed batch some other colour morphs will not be amongst the biggest ones but I think there is a definite difference in the growth rates of wild types vs other morphs.
The axolotl in the add had a deformed spine and it looked pretty bad. I personally would have culled it at a much smaller size and not offered it for rehoming let alone with a price tag. I will try to find the link and pm it to you.
 
Hey Azhael- who are you to reclassify them as "Ambystoma mexicanum domestica"?

Legs are much different than the eyes in axolotls (and any other creature for that matter). They actually use their legs. If there were a strain of human beings born without an appendix they'd be like the eyeless axolotls. Something is missing, but it causes them no harm, just one less organ that can get infected.

Wow, you think I don't care for the welfare of my animals? I was simply telling the truth. When did you join PETA?




Ian- I agree with you about culling it out when it was younger, but some people don't understand that culling can be necessary sometimes.

I have raised a few axolotls and think that it all depends on the clutch. I've had gold and leucistic grow faster than wild types, but usually they all grow at different rates regardless of color.
 
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Ah, yes the weight of your arguments has convinced me. Eyes are a completely different story, they clearly have no use whatsoever. Are you so blinded by your dislike towards me that you really fail to realize that if the eyes trully had no use, the genes that make them would drift away and the eye would eventually be lost (even if just facultatively) as has happened in all species who trully have no use for their eyes??
The human appendix is not analogous to the axolotl eye. The axolotl eye is somewhat vestigial, but it retains a clear function...the appendix doesn´t. It´s more analogous to losing your sense of smell. It´s not critical for your survival, you can get by in most situations, but it´s a loss of a functional system anyway. Also, the eye is a muuuuuuuuch more energetically costly organ, it´s really expensive, so if you are going to invest energy in them, it´s because it pays off, period.
And what about the metabolic pathways i mentioned? Those could trully be redundant in captivity, does that mean it´s all good? Or the lateral line? With a diet of pellets you just need your nose, the lateral line is useless, so can that go too? You clearly have a passion for the axolotl as an animal...oh yes... except wait, it can´t be the actual animal since you are contempt for it to loose any parts that you judge redundant (and i´m the arrogant one), so....is it just the pretty colours on a living organism? If that´s the case i highly recommend getting into the awesome world of sponge breeding, where you can let your fantasies fly without messing up with a sentient being.

I think your care for the welfare of your animals is shortsighted and subject to making exceptions in favor of desired phenotypes. I have no doubt you care to some extent, i´m just saying you should care a little more. And i would never join PETA...they are clueless morons...

I´m noone. And i didn´t reclassify anything....It´s clear by the definition of a domestic animal that axolotls are exactly that, therefore the name that applies to the domesticated subpopulation could be A.m.domestica...or whatever else, i don´t care, just as long as it´s recognized, as you point out, i´m not in charge of naming anything, which doesn´t stop captive axolotls from being domesticated and distinctive. Also, i hope you realise that changes are not made by authorities, but by evidence. But clearly you don´t care about aaaaaany of these things, none of what´s actually being discussed. You just want to profer insults at me and distract the attention from the actual issues with your inane trolling.
 
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By the way, it is extremely reassuring to hear that everything´s allright and we shouldn´t worry our little heads because after all albino axolotls don´t display neurological dissorders and so any criticism is an overreaction, all from the same guy who says that fertility and functional organs are unimportant and shouldn´t concern us. I can rest peacefully now knowing that nothing bad will happen to captive axolotls as a result of negligent breeding practices.
 
is it just me or does everywhere Rodrigo (Azhael) posts turn out the same, as an argument, or heated discussion? :confused:

just chill people! :p take care of your axies and theyll be happy and live long time! Dont inbreed them of course, I think we can all agree to that! :p
 
It´s just you. It really is.
I´ve been here for a while and have plenty of posts, only a fraction of which could be said to be heated in any way. Still, thank you very much for your thoughtfull insight and your priceless contributions to the discussion and the forums. Your judgement means the world to me.
I´m really starting to get annoyed that some things just can´t be discussed in a civilized manner because there are people who will insist in not letting it happen.
There are HUNDREDS and hundreds of threads where people can discuss how pwetty and adowable their axies are, hundreds of them where people can discuss about wether their weird axie is a new mutation, or what kind of cool mutation they have, etc, etc....all without a single thought for the future.
Outside of the axie world, there´s even more, because the vast majority of animal keepers are part of the same shallow, cosmetics obsesed market.
So you have everything...you have the hobby, the market, the forums, the animals, everything...and there´s a single little thread where a few people are trying to warn of the future consequences of continuing with these practices and apparently that´s too much. Someone you don´t agree with is having the opportunity to discuss a topic and that´s just intolerable!! If this thread got heated is because Jake regaled us with his trolling.

Bah...


And remember people, just chill and love your axies...no need to use your ability for forethought. Just keep on doing things the same way and ignoring the consequences. Hey, it´s worked with dogs, perfectly:
10 of the World's Ugliest Dogs - Oddee.com (ugly dog, ugliest dogs)
And goldfish, canaries, poultry, cattle, snakes, geckos.......Yeah, it´s definitely flawless.

Oh, i have a question axiekeeper.....how are people going to get their favourite colours without inbreeding? And how is inbreeding the only significant factor in this entire discussion? Have you even read the thread? I´m willing to bet you haven´t....and that you just came to do some trolling of your own, after all people must be told what an awful person i am, as if it´s not self evident ;).
 
This isn't really an opinion, rather, a question that I thought would be relevant.

This is under the assumption that color morphs in itself are not detrimental to the health of an axie in any way, and that it is common sense mutations such as pinhead are. In theory, couldn't inbreeding be an excellent way to purge deleterious alleles from the gene pool, provided that the necessary culling is performed (removing from the gene pool, not necessarily killing). Diversity hides issues, whereas inbreeding brings them to light, allowing for the removal of the gene. With that being said, couldn't color morphs, no matter how inbred, be healthy if not even healthier than a diverse wild type, provided responsible breeding takes place?
 
I would like to ask why my post was deleted ? I asked people to stay on topic in this thread concerning "the sale of substandard axolotls in the uk", I also mentioned handbags, suppressed desire between a couple of the guys arguing here and crappy attitudes. Pm each other to sort out your personal differences or get a room.
 
For the most part, for a thread entitled "What do you guys think", this thread has stayed pretty close to on topic, as most of us are trying to discuss what we think should be considered "sub-standard" axolotl genes, and it does pertain to the selling of deformed axies in many ways. I've definitely learned some new interesting things I didnt know before about axies and their genetics, and some interesting points were brought up that I definitely want to mull over.

That being said, I really wish this could be discussed in a less inflammatory way. If some of you want to argue instead of discuss...it really should be done over PM.

I'm just thankful that most of the threads on this forum dont get as heated and nasty like they do on other forums I've been *briefly* part of. Except of course the rare threads like this one, when people are refusing to play nice... *sigh*
 
I would like to ask why my post was deleted ? I asked people to stay on topic in this thread concerning "the sale of substandard axolotls in the uk", I also mentioned handbags, suppressed desire between a couple of the guys arguing here and crappy attitudes. Pm each other to sort out your personal differences or get a room.

I will attempt just that. It disgusts me that people would purposely breed an axolotl for a deformity. I haven't seen such a case in the US as of yet, and hope that I never will. That being said, I am attempting to isolate a gene for blue spotted axolotls, but that is merely a color gene. What I am referring to in saying "it disgusts me" is the breeding and selling of sub-par genetics as a novelty item. Any healthy individuals that are differently colored are okay, but scoliosis and neurological problems should be avoided in the trade, and not regarded as "special".

Thank you for bringing such haneous acts to our attention. It is unfortunate the thread turned volatile.
 
This isn't really an opinion, rather, a question that I thought would be relevant.

This is under the assumption that color morphs in itself are not detrimental to the health of an axie in any way, and that it is common sense mutations such as pinhead are. In theory, couldn't inbreeding be an excellent way to purge deleterious alleles from the gene pool, provided that the necessary culling is performed (removing from the gene pool, not necessarily killing). Diversity hides issues, whereas inbreeding brings them to light, allowing for the removal of the gene. With that being said, couldn't color morphs, no matter how inbred, be healthy if not even healthier than a diverse wild type, provided responsible breeding takes place?


Theoretically, you could breed specific deleterious genes out through an endogamous scheme, yes, but this is neither happening nor is it likely to happen at all. This was done with certain strains of laboratory mice (for research recquirements) and although it worked to eliminate the vast majority of recessive deleterious genes, is not without its consequences. Some strains have high incidences of tumors in late age, most commonly used strains are all albino, which is fine when you are kept in labs where even light levels are controlled, but not great when you are exposed to normal/high levels of light, and the most relevant of all, the genetic variation is extremely low making the entire strain very vulnerable to pandemics. Contagious diseases can cause massive deaths.
So yeah, it could be done, and there are specific colour mutations that are not necessarily deleterious, but the thing is, this is not happening AT ALL, it´s not likely to happen and in fact it´s happening the other way around, where the inbreeding is being used to fix and perpetuate mutations, deleterious or not, and not to eliminate mutations, ever...
So let´s not forget that even if axolotls where to be inbred to eliminate deleterious mutations, that itself has its own consequences, and that doing this would require a great deal of money, lab facilities and the elimination of all known deleterious alleles, wether they make the animal pretty, unique, or not.
Regarding your final sentence, Jasper, no, they wouldn´t be healthier. That technique can be applied to colour mutations and to wildtypes, but an albino for example, even if recessive deleterious genes are eliminated from their gene pool, will still be an albino, which even though most people wouldn´t care at all, is still an animal that shouldn´t be exposed to normal light levels.
It´s a nice hypothetical, but it´s not the solution to all the problems the current breeding systems are producing and will produce.

Antgarner, i don´t know about the mutation you are trying to isolate (provided it´s possible), but let me give you a small warning. This idea of " merely a colour gene" is insane. A mutation that causes a variation in colour phenotype can also cause very serious trouble elsewhere. The example has already been used in this thread of the spider ball python. This is a reduced pattern mutation that causes an obvious and very sought after phenotype but also causes a lack (or perhaps the mechanism is different, it´s not clear) of certain neuromelanins which in turn produce a neurological pathology called "wobbling". The same type of reduced pattern mutation that affects neuromelanins exists in jaguar carpet pythons and enigma leopard geckos, with similar neurological effects.
You can´t just assume because a mutation causes a colour variation, that´s all it does. It could be associated with other deleterious mutations, or be deleterious itself. There are albino mutations that increase the incidence of spinal kinks or cause reduced fertility, leucistic mutations that cause deafness, melanoid mutations associated to craneal deformities, etc...
It´s dangerous to pretend that colour mutations can´t be atrociously negative for the individual. It´s also dangerous to pretend that because such things haven´t been identified in axolotls yet, they won´t happen.

I´m very glad to see people reacting apropriately to animals with deformities, diminished life quality, etc, as it should be, but it would surprise all of you how much people are prepared to ignore or tolerate in favor of other characteristics, and without apparently giving it a single thought!
I also wish people would realise that this idea that as long as you just toy with the colours and nothing else, nothing bad can happen, is simply not realistic in any way.

PS: As one of the volatile individuals, let me apologize for my part in possibly spoiling the thread for some of you.
 
Antgarner, i don´t know about the mutation you are trying to isolate (provided it´s possible), but let me give you a small warning. This idea of " merely a colour gene" is insane. A mutation that causes a variation in colour phenotype can also cause very serious trouble elsewhere. The example has already been used in this thread of the spider ball python. This is a reduced pattern mutation that causes an obvious and very sought after phenotype but also causes a lack (or perhaps the mechanism is different, it´s not clear) of certain neuromelanins which in turn produce a neurological pathology called "wobbling". The same type of reduced pattern mutation that affects neuromelanins exists in jaguar carpet pythons and enigma leopard geckos, with similar neurological effects.
You can´t just assume because a mutation causes a colour variation, that´s all it does. It could be associated with other deleterious mutations, or be deleterious itself. There are albino mutations that increase the incidence of spinal kinks or cause reduced fertility, leucistic mutations that cause deafness, melanoid mutations associated to craneal deformities, etc...
It´s dangerous to pretend that colour mutations can´t be atrociously negative for the individual. It´s also dangerous to pretend that because such things haven´t been identified in axolotls yet, they won´t happen.

I´m very glad to see people reacting apropriately to animals with deformities, diminished life quality, etc, as it should be, but it would surprise all of you how much people are prepared to ignore or tolerate in favor of other characteristics, and without apparently giving it a single thought!
I also wish people would realise that this idea that as long as you just toy with the colours and nothing else, nothing bad can happen, is simply not realistic in any way.

PS: As one of the volatile individuals, let me apologize for my part in possibly spoiling the thread for some of you.

I understand the fact that certain alleles carry more than just colors, but that is not to say that all genes which control color have their own problems. I know firsthand what people will seek in their animals, as I have worked in a reptile shop and worked with many pet stores. The truth is, people want something "different" just because of the 2 minute awe effect they get when people see their pet. The genes I am referring to when I say "merely a color gene" is just that. A gene that controls coloer, and that causes no complications in the animal's life. I do not, however, count albinism as just a color gene. It does cause slight complications. Although I do agree with most of what has been said, I also believe that people will always pay for oddities. As long as the individual is healthy, there should be no reason why breeding said individuals should be condemned.

Selling animals with deformities and neurological problems is another story. That damages the trade as a whole. Hopefully breeding practices will improve, but most people want unusual pets. If there was a breeding practice that would produce the fittest animals, it would be an ecosystem that has at least one type of predator that would hunt the axolotls. So unless anyone has a private indoor lake that they want to use to improve genetically inferior domesticated axolotl into something more akin to the wild ones, this wont happen.
 
I understand the fact that certain alleles carry more than just colors, but that is not to say that all genes which control color have their own problems. I know firsthand what people will seek in their animals, as I have worked in a reptile shop and worked with many pet stores. The truth is, people want something "different" just because of the 2 minute awe effect they get when people see their pet. The genes I am referring to when I say "merely a color gene" is just that. A gene that controls coloer, and that causes no complications in the animal's life. I do not, however, count albinism as just a color gene. It does cause slight complications. Although I do agree with most of what has been said, I also believe that people will always pay for oddities. As long as the individual is healthy, there should be no reason why breeding said individuals should be condemned.

Selling animals with deformities and neurological problems is another story. That damages the trade as a whole. Hopefully breeding practices will improve, but most people want unusual pets. If there was a breeding practice that would produce the fittest animals, it would be an ecosystem that has at least one type of predator that would hunt the axolotls. So unless anyone has a private indoor lake that they want to use to improve genetically inferior domesticated axolotl into something more akin to the wild ones, this wont happen.


Yup, I couldn't agree more.

This argument sounds a lot like arguments I hear in the "anti-dog breeding" community. Certain breeds appear to be prone to certain health issues, but in reality, it is not the breed itself, but the irresponsible breeding that is the problem!

If people who are breeding for certain traits are responsible, use healthy stock, and are sure to cull (or in applicable cases, simply sterilize) sickly animals so that they cannot pass on the traits, then you will find that you CAN breed selectively without producing genetic atrocities.

The problem is that some people simply don't know better, and some simply don't care.
 
I understand the fact that certain alleles carry more than just colors, but that is not to say that all genes which control color have their own problems. I know firsthand what people will seek in their animals, as I have worked in a reptile shop and worked with many pet stores. The truth is, people want something "different" just because of the 2 minute awe effect they get when people see their pet. The genes I am referring to when I say "merely a color gene" is just that. A gene that controls coloer, and that causes no complications in the animal's life. I do not, however, count albinism as just a color gene. It does cause slight complications. Although I do agree with most of what has been said, I also believe that people will always pay for oddities. As long as the individual is healthy, there should be no reason why breeding said individuals should be condemned.

I agree with you. There are colour mutations which produce no ill effects, and may even be adaptive in specific circumstances (melanoid mountain vipers come to mind). This is certainly true. However, it is also true that some mutations that cause phenotype changes, also have other effects and my criticism is that currently in the hobby, these is all largely ignored. People breed deleterious mutations just the same as they breed neutral ones. I personally have no special problem with the pastel mutation in ball pythons, for example, which seems to me to be a natural polymorphism, but i have a big problem with spider, cinnamon, caramel albino morphs, among others.
What you describe, the 2 minute awe factor, the superfitiality of the whole market and the value of novelties for the mere fact of being novel, is precisely what allows the general public to cross the line between breeding for neutral mutations, to breeding for deleterious mutations without giving it a second thought.
I still have some concerns about the breeding of neutral mutations because they are still susceptible to bad breeding practices, just as wild types are. I´m also rather cynical about the criteria that are largely used to say that a given animal is healthy, because it´s usually stablished by personal fiat or by the most superfitial of examinations.

I also agree with you on your point about albinism. While albinotic mutations can be neutral (again, even adaptive) in specific environments, they are definitely deleterious in the kinds of environments where the nominal or "wild type" alleles occur. An albino individual in the same circumstances as a nominal, is at a disadvantage and can suffer negative consequences.

Selling animals with deformities and neurological problems is another story. That damages the trade as a whole. Hopefully breeding practices will improve, but most people want unusual pets. If there was a breeding practice that would produce the fittest animals, it would be an ecosystem that has at least one type of predator that would hunt the axolotls. So unless anyone has a private indoor lake that they want to use to improve genetically inferior domesticated axolotl into something more akin to the wild ones, this wont happen.

Agreed, it damages the animals and it damages the whole market. Most people are very ignorant of animals and their whims result in negligence and suffering for those animals. That´s why it is important to inform people and attack that from inside the hobby, rather than doing the opposite and encouraging it, which is the current market does.
There are ways to apply some possitive selection without the need for predators. Allowing for competition among larvae is a rather good start. Selecting aberrants out of the gene pool rather than promoting them also helps quite a lot. Natural selection is not really replicable indoors, but you can have artifitial selection that mimics parts of it and which while not sufficient to prevent domestication, can still produce a healthy gene pool.
 
I totally forgot about this thread. Haha, I missed quite a bit. Anyway, Azhael, I do agree that health issues should be avoided and that not breeding for specific colours can help that. However, I was merely addressing that a healthy axolotl is not connected to its colour. Therefore, all axolotls being brown would be a sad thing to me. I like diversity. And I really don't understand this about the community wanting anything other than wild types. I know many people who love them. The dark colours are my boyfriend's and roommate's favourite. I see them sold pretty quickly as well. I personally enjoy how much the colours and shades vary within the morph to the point where 3 wildtypes can look completely different from each other where as 3 leucistics will all pretty much look the same.



And I'm glad Jake popped in because I buy axolotls from him regularly and have bought axolotls from a few other breeders on this site. Jake's axolotls are the best I've had health wise. Sure there are a few issues occasionally, but these issues happen to wilds just as commonly as they happen to the other colours. Wilds also don't grow quicker than the other morphs. From my experience with his axolotls, the leucistics grow the fastest. The growth rates probably have some to do with genes, but not necessarily colour.

In response to dog breeds related with health defects, that's not true. For example, the merle colour in some dogs is directly linked to deafness. I forget the specifics of it, but it has something to do with the sporadic patches of colour are a pigment mutation that effects the inner ear. Great Danes are also predisposed to heart problems due to their large size. Pugs and many short snouted dogs have breathing problems. No amount of proper breeding will rid the dog community of these problems. Even the merle gene because Dalmatians are considered to be merle coloured dogs. (Which is why Dalmatians are prone to deafness) To have the dog community be very fit as a whole, we would need to wipe out many breeds entirely. Which again, is why I think it's wrong to look down on light coloured axolotls and those who like them because there really is nothing wrong healthwise with a light coloured axolotl as opposed to a wild. And honestly, breeding only wilds won't prevent that either.

I'd also like to point out that people do cash in on dogs with deformities. A missing leg or eye, a blind dog, etc. are animals that tug on people's heart strings so people want them and are willing to pay a good amount for them. Yes, I do think this is wrong, Ian. I think it's wrong to sell any unhealthy animal, but the fact is people still buy them. (That has nothing to do with the colour though :p) However, I guess the population of unhealthy dogs can be more easily controlled without culling since we can spay and neuter them.
 
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I feel that this thread is coming off topic. So this is my attempt to get it back on track.

The post was made regarding the sale of a deformed axolotl. If I remember correctly,the seller called it 'special' and as such wanted to charge a silly amount of money for it. I have just looked to see if it is still for sale, and it is, but now at a reduced price. It seems to me that no one wants it.

The question was...What do you guys think, stupidity or greed?

I personally think it is irresponsible to sell a noticeably, physically deformed axolotl. I also think if the animal should have been culled when the deformity was spotted. I would be very concerned that the animal would potentially be re-homed by a well meaning owner, who then decides that the animal needs a friend. What if the second axolotl is the opposite sex, and eggs are produced? What if the eggs are raised, or eggs passed on to other people. I would think there would be a strong risk that some offspring may have the same deformity.
Now I also appreciate that deformed axolotl are raised, I have a deformed male that I took on a few years ago. Sadly this animal was used for breeding. The original owner had thought the deformity was due to a badly healed injury and used the animal for breeding. Rather alarmingly a number of the offspring showed similar problems. These where culled, but the offspring that didn't show the deformity where raised and sold. I suppose the point I am attempting to make here is, if you choose to raise a physically deformed animal then this animal should not leave your care, or be allowed to reproduce.
 
It´s just you. It really is.
I´ve been here for a while and have plenty of posts, only a fraction of which could be said to be heated in any way. Still, thank you very much for your thouOghtfull insight and your priceless contributions to the discussion and the forums.
Oh, i have a question axiekeeper.....how are people going to get their favourite colours without inbreeding? And how is inbreeding the only significant factor in this entire discussion? Have you even read the thread? I´m willing to bet you haven´t....and that you just came to do some trolling of your own, after all people must be told what an awful person i am, as if it´s not self evident ;).

I understand genetics, just fine and I read the thread.
These colormutations do not have to be weak. Its inbreeding that makes them weaker. By outbreeding with wildtypes u can succesfully have stronger colormutations. Inbreeding is just easier to do when u want to produce more colormutes per batch quicker but is irresponsible. They have the same issue with electric blue jack dempseys and instead of squaballing about whether we should have them people are working together to make them stronger, because they are gonna exist.

Im not coming around this thread again because it is negative and pointless as at this point no on here is gonna change there minds on the matter.by the way my first post was just to give u a hard time and not serious (obvious to most) and lighten the mood a little.
 
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in hindsight i may have used a word that was not neccesary, ill see what i can do to fix it.
 
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