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What is your definition of "species".

SludgeMunkey

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OK folks, no cheating. Quick! before you cut and paste off some website, post what you were taught is the definition of species!


(Trust me on this one folks, this is a bit of a thought experiment that will build into a caudate discussion.)


I'll go first:

I have been taught that a species is a group of organisms morphologically and geographically distinct that reproduce providing viable offspring.
 

Azhael

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Get out of my head! I kid you not, i was thinking about this subject earlier today.
There´s the basic definition you provided which is essentially what i was taught, with some modifications later on, to eventually end in the current situation which is that:

I don´t have an absolut definition of species.
I have a loose definition but it´s not fixed and it doesn´t apply to all cases.

This is an interesting subject that i don´t think a lot of people realise. Language, and therefore biological nomenclature, is a discrete system and trying to apply to a continuum is not easy and can´t work for all cases. It is, however, necessary so that´s it...
 

KingCam

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I guess my definition of a species is an animal genetically different enough not to be able to reproduce with a similar looking animal. Anything different that can breed with others would be like a subspecies. Was the clear or just confusing? I feel confused :confused: lol

I didn't cheat or google, so don't make fun of me for being completely off base and wrong, haha
 

jane1187

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I am a biologist, and I'm a lecturer so here's my understanding of the subject (which will also expand on what Azhael said).

The basic principle that's taught in biology up until about university level that a species is a group of animals that can reproduce together to form fertile offspring.

Of course there are many instances where this definition becomes blurred and it is a subject we broach once students are at university level. It is known as the 'species problem'. Here are some of the cases which unhelpfully blur the edges of the definition:

Case 1: ring species. an example is the herring and lesser black-backed gull. These are two distinct species here in the UK which do not interbreed at all. However, the herring gull has a global distribution around the northern hemisphere that encircles the globe. The whole population is capable of constant genetic mixing right the way around to the Americas, where at this point it has become the lesser black-backed gull, with the gradual morphological difference occurring whilst the population encircles the globe. Where the herring gull meets the black-backed gull in the UK they act, and basically are, separate species. But technically because the herring gull interbreeds all the way round the world until it 'becomes' the lesser black-backed they are technically the same species.

Case 2: fertile hybrids. Fertile hybrids confuse the whole matter entirely. Where two distinct 'species' can hybridise to form fertile offspring the definition of species comes into question. If they are separate species then why can they interbreed? Where this naturally occurs along the boundaries of distributions it brings forward a case similar to that of the gull, the two populations are interbreeding. Are they distinct species or just two different morphs of the same species?

Case 3: Island species. Some species which have been isolated on islands (or otherwise separated geographically) will tend to evolve in different ways. Imagine species which have only recently been isolated, and have changed only slightly. In most cases these island dwellers will be classified as seperate species, but in reality if the island and mainland populations were to be suddenly joined again the whole population would interbreed. It is difficult to determine when an isolated population has evolved and changed so much as to be classified as a separate species.

Sorry if this is not all new information to any of you but to be honest its a bit of a difficult question you've asked... to which my answer is there is no one definition of a species that covers all outcomes. Biology is too damn complicated to be ring-boxed :)

Hope this helps
 

FrogEyes

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I will ignore anything I was taught, as much of that hinges on "species concepts", and not on the actual defining of a species. I will ignore the inconvenience of clonal and other asexual species for the moment:

A species is a group of organisms which interbreed more or less freely, and share a common gene pool.

Physical or other traits are essentially irrelevant, because a snake does not do scale counts to choose a mate - regardless of how WE discern a species, the evidence of whether organisms are or are not the same is in whether they share a common gene pool. Frequently, the traits we use to recognize species are coincidental, and simply "came along for the ride" when a divergent lineage ceased interbreeding with its congeners. In most cases, when we find significant divergence in appearance, voice, pheromones, behavior, habitat, etc., we also find the genetic traits indicative of isolated and interbreeding gene pools. Conversely, when we find such isolated and interbreeding gene pools, we often do NOT find more easily measured traits. The common denominator is that genetic traits are much more reliably indicative of species status than "visible" traits are. That said, there are a few instances where biochemical traits do not effectively differentiate, but more traditional traits do. The bottom line is that it only takes one reliable inherited trait, of any kind, to establish that an isolated gene pool exists. For the most part; all of the traits we measure, genetic or otherwise, are proxies for more extensive and unmeasured differences anyway. The biochemical markers we use are mostly coincidental ones that we expect to see by random mutation and inheritance. The physical traits are expressions of multiple genes which are likely strongly affected by natural selection. So both aspects are "genetic", but measures of different types of influence.

Paraphyly and polyphyly, as opposed to monophyly, are also irrelevant. You cannot use paraphyly or polyphyly as arguments for lumping or further splitting a species, because sexual species by their very nature are polyphyletic to begin with [ie, two parents of different lineages]. Furthermore, the divergence of a single lineage to a point at which it is reproductively isolated, does NOT mean that its closest relatives are similarly divergent. The latter may in fact continue to freely interbreed with more distant relatives. So despite paraphyly or polyphyly, the criterion of common gene pools interbreeding is maintained. For higher taxa, such as genus and family, monophyly IS required, because these taxa are defined as "natural" groupings of related species. To be natural groupings, they must share ancestry without excluding anyone.

A word on a popular fallacy...separate species are NOT inherintly unable to interbreed. Nor does the ability to interbreed indicate that organisms are the same species. Apart from the many examples of firmly accepted distinct species producing hybrids together, the basic problem here is a logical one: If two organisms CANNOT interbreed, they CANNOT be the same species. That should seem obvious, and it is quite possible for very closely related species to be more isolated than distant relatives. That's because new species can easily arise by changes in chromosome numbers or other wholesale changes in the genome. Such changes frequently result in incompatible gametes. Distant species with similar chromosome numbers and structures may be more able to create a viable embryo than siblings with drastically different numbers. The failure in logic is the assumption that there are only two possible answers:
1. Unable to interbreed = separate species [true]
2. Able to interbreed = same species [may or may not be true]
There is a third answer which is rarely considered:
3. Able to interbreed, but normally do not = separate species [true]

Gamete fertility is not the only determinant of whether organisms can or do share a gene pool. Despite interfertility, thousands of other factors may limit or prevent interbreeding. Answers two and three get falsely lumped together as one, despite their different conclusions.

A word on "species concepts".

Species concepts are not competing definitions of "species". They are complementary means of identifying species. Once a species has been identified, it is normally the case that a small pile of species concepts will ALL be found to be true, even though only one was used to begin with. I was thinking at length on this topic, when someone else actually wrote it up in Zootaxa. Locating that paper could take longer than I'd like, but here are some additional discussions:
John S. Wilkins, Philosophically speaking, how many species concepts are there? | PhilPapers

Ultimately, regardless of how they are defined, there is always a question of degree - how much difference is required to indicate non-conspecificity? It's somewhat arbitrary, although there are now mathematical techniques being applied, via the "coalescent species" concept. I believe this is considered to be a non-arbitrary technique...but I suspect that's not entirely true. At some point, assumptions are made.

On subspecies:
The definition of a subspecies is identical to the definition of a species. Identical. That's why subspecies are frequently raised to species...or completely erased. The concept is still useful for those cases where a distinct gene pool is identified, but there isn't enough reproductive isolation to be comfortable with separate species status. That is, if there is essentially unimpaired interbreeding between distinctive populations, they could be treated as subspecies. If there is little interbreeding, but only recent divergence, they are full species. Anaxyrus americanus and A.hemiophrys have a band in which they overlap and interbreed, but there is actually very little spread of traits of the one into the population of the other. Their interbreeding is thus "impaired", and they are separate species. The same applies to Dicamptodon ensatus and D.tenebrosus, except that the overlap is only a couple of creeks and a couple of kilometers distance.
 

SludgeMunkey

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Excellent!

I can see that a few of you have been reading my mind again...


So, now that we have a pretty good understanding of this part of the conversation, let's have some fun with it.


The bulk of current taxonomy is based on visual morphological and geographic data. With the advent of advanced, relatively low cost genomic quantification, many changes have been presented in the last few years.

Throw in the "new" trend of molecular data "affirming" a species status and we enthusiasts of the amphibian persuasion are faced with some interesting problems.

Now, keep in mind I am fully supportive of the removal of polyploids from this current conversation for the time being...while we are at it let us ignore random gene generation and environmental factors in new gene appearance too....


So theoretically speaking:

What if a selection of accepted, certified specimens across a genus were exposed by molecular data to be genetically identical enough to be considered one molecular species? However, the populations sampled from were from a diverse geographic area and all are populations naturally well isolated from one another.

Continuing with these theoretical amphibian, each of these populations are generally visually similar. Due to intervention by say, humans, various specimens have been released in non native areas and successfully produce viable hybrids. While slightly morphologically different from their mixed parentage, the offspring of the hybrids are in fact stable, replicable breeders.

Now the fun starts (and hopefully more discussion...): Let us say that molecular data sampled from F1, F2, and F3 generations all hybrids, show them all similar enough data as to be indistinguishable from the original spectrum specimens.

Simultaneously, a natural event of massive widespread flooding results in a number of our separate wild populations results in identical crosses with identical results, in other words, they are natural population hybrids.


Under the theoretical circumstances above, what do we do now?


(Seriously folks, I AM going somewhere with this, just bear with me...)
 

FrogEyes

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The scenario you present doesn't seem at all remarkable. Your starting point and your end point don't seem to differ, so there is no "what if".

You started with a homogenous group.
You created intra-group hybrids, which do not differ between generations.
You caused a range expansion.
You ended with a homogenous group.

Start and end are the same. Did I read it wrong, or did you explain it wrong? When I first looked at your scenario, I immediately thought of Ensatina, Plethodon ouachitae, Plethodon fourchensis, and Pachytriton...but those situations aren't at all what you're describing.
 

Sdaji

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It's a very complex question, and there isn't a single definition which always fits.

The herring and black gull example was an interesting one, I hadn't heard of it before but there are lots of similar ones, as well as completely different ones which equally blur things.

I am a biologist too, but I suppose I'm a bit of a heretic because I don't agree with the currently generally accepted definitions. To me, the best simple way to summarise it is... a species is defined as the animals (or plants) which can reproduce together to produce normal, viable, fertile offspring, and would do so under normal natural conditions if given access to each other.

Generally I would go along with the traditional (but now rarely accepted) definition of 'things which can breed together and make fertile offspring', and I totally reject the nonsense about %DNA differences, since that defines some things which routinely and ongoingly reproduce as part of the same population and have free gene exchange different species. I can't fully accept the traditional definition though, because there are glaring exceptions. All pythons from tiny little 60cm (2') Pygmy Pythons to giant 10m Reticulated Pythons, desert specialists and radically different rainforest specialists, etc. etc. are genetically compatible. It's really bizarre, but they can all make fertile offspring. In the wild many of these species come into contact with each other, but for some reason they virtually never interbreed. Oddly, if you stick them together in a cage they'll breed with each other, sometimes quite readily. Although wild hybrids are virtually unknown, they presumably must be produced from time to time, but in wild conditions the hybrids must have dramatically reduced ability to survive and/or reproduce, because gene flow doesn't occur and the species remain totally distinct.

There are cases where two distinct species hybridise and the hybrids form new species. This is well documented in sunflowers as well as several others, although it is a very rare phenomenon.

We actually can't even strictly use being able to breed together as part of the definition of species, because it makes all obligate parthenogenetic species lose meaning, and defines each individual animal to its own species, including their own parents and offspring which are clones of themselves. Or alternatively you might say that these individuals are not members of any species and are some form of collective 'mule'.

Many popular modern definitions of 'species' immediately count populations as different species the very moment they are geographically isolated. If you were to introduce a few on to an island, they would suddenly be defined as a different species. To me that's just stupid; surely if the only thing blocking gene flow is geography and no differences have *yet* formed, they're not *yet* different species, so geographic isolation is irrelevant.

It's certainly a complicated question that not everyone is going to agree on, and there are always going to be quirky little exceptions which won't fit any definition. It's not helped by poor scientists who are more interested in putting their name on something or publishing a paper rather than getting things right. A very big part of the push towards people being 'splitters' rather than 'lumpers' is the desire to publish and label rather than it being correct or appropriate.
 

SludgeMunkey

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The scenario you present doesn't seem at all remarkable. Your starting point and your end point don't seem to differ, so there is no "what if".

You started with a homogenous group.
You created intra-group hybrids, which do not differ between generations.
You caused a range expansion.
You ended with a homogenous group.

Start and end are the same. Did I read it wrong, or did you explain it wrong? When I first looked at your scenario, I immediately thought of Ensatina, Plethodon ouachitae, Plethodon fourchensis, and Pachytriton...but those situations aren't at all what you're describing.

It is probably a combination of the two Frog, but the theoretical situation, heck the entire thought experiment, is based of something a bit closer to home...;)


I think what I failed to clarify enough in my examples is that based under current taxonomy, the homogeneous groups are considered non-homogeneous because of the morphological rather than molecular classification.
 

FrogEyes

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Genetic similarity does not prove that organisms are a single species, since the genes we examine are only a tiny subset of the total genetic information. If consistant heritable morphological differences are present, those differences are also genetic, since they must be in order to be heritable. It is just that we are measuring indirectly and as a set of combined and unidentified genes. One only need a single piece of heritable difference to demonstrate lack of free exchange. Shared similarities only indicate a lack of divergence in particular traits since the last interchange. Even if the last interchange was recent, the presence of differences shows that such interchange is not free or constant.

Ecological niche modeling is an interesting recent technique to mention, since it often deals with organisms which are initially considered a single species with relatively little divergence in genetic markers or morphology. What ENM often demonstrates is that, despite low divergence in morphology and genetic markers, certain populations are uniquely adapted to fairly narrow environments. Adjacent groups, despite their similarities, are not as flexible as assumed and are NOT adapted to freely move into each others habitats. So despite a lack of other differences, these groups have inherited environmental adaptations distinct from one another and are isolated in that way. Examples include the Plethodon fourchensis complex, P.ouachitae complex, Aneides flavipunctatus complex, and Lampropeltis getula complex. Each of these was found to consist of multiple species, each of which is uniquely adapted to habitats measurably different from the others, and each was largely absent from overlapping or intermediate habitats.

To the rhetorical case you mention. You would seem to be describing a situation in which the various taxa are not ecologically isolated, but are isolated by environmental barriers and thus experiencing drift, with the differences yet shallow enough the endemic reproductive barriers do not yet exist [ie, geography prevents interbreeding, not biology]. Prior to mergence, at least some of these populations could be considered valid and separate species. Following mergence, the hybrid swarm itself could be considered a new species, although it could be argued that it is a reconstruction of the ancestral species as well. If your genetic markers don't jibe with your morphological traits, you may need to find new ones which do.

There are a number of similar real world examples, especially among salamanders. There are many cases where mtDNA and nDNA demonstrate different ancestry. Where the mtDNA is not especially unique, it may be an example of hybridization or introgression following hybridization. Where it is further unique from either parental population, it may be a case of hybridization producing a new and now independant species. Taxa for which this is common include Batrachoseps and Batrachuperus. Also notable is Plethodon teyahalee, for which the nomenclatural discussion has focused on the rules regarding hybrid origins [an F1 hybrid cannot be a species type; but subsequent generations can be. P.teyahalee has an extensive history of hybridization and likely arose by hybrid origin. The type specimens are not F1 hybrids, and thus the replacement name P.oconaluftee is unecessary].

There are additional cases in which hybridization has been a result of environmental change, either natural or induced by humans. Parthenogenic whiptails (Aspidoscelis) typically occupy the ecotones between the parental species, and are the product of hybridization. Northern painted turtles have been suggested to be a single merged species, produced by three sibling species re-merging following glaciation. I would have to review that hypothesis, since I know that the most recent data shows a very shallow and rapid mtDNA divergence which might argue against that scenario. European firebellied toads are hybridizing extensively, but primarily only in man-made ecotones between the species, and without either hybridization or introgression much beyond that zone. Salamandra salamandra terrestris and S.s.salamandra are morphologically distinct, but seem to be gradually merging following the isolation which established their differences. There is much natural hybridization in Anaxyrus toads. A number of recognized species are believed to be peripheral isolates of more widely distributed species (A.houstonensis, A.baxteri), but conversely a number of "species" are now thought to consist of multiple cryptic species. This could in part be related to the problem I mentioned earlier, of paraphyly and polyphyly not being valid reasons for species recognition - The recognition of A.houstonensis, A.baxteri, Lithobates maslini, or Dendrobates azureus does NOT compell us to further divide their closest and more diverse relatives (respectively A.americanus, A.hemiophrys, L.sylvaticus, and D.tinctorius. However, the evidence of species level diversity in A.americanus and A.terrestris comes from independant sources as well.

Tiger salamanders are still problematic. There are many examples within this clade of morphologically identifiable species which form distinct and sometimes deep genetic subclades. There are also large groups which are genetically diverse but lacking in apparent reproductive isolation. This might be a classic case of paraphyly and polyphyly, with many Mexican species being isolated and distinct but of low variability, a few being hybrid swarms, and a few widely distributed and adaptable forms being highly diverse genetically but homogeneous in breeding and morphology. The evidence will have to be examined case by case, with a wary eye to the impermanence of many of the geographic "barriers" in arid-adapted caudates. Barring introductions of allochthonous specimens, I would suspect many populations isolated by mountain ranges to be valid species, and many of these have already been named and recognized. Such populations account for basically everything west or southwest of Ambystoma mavortium mavortium and A.mavortium melanostictum, plus at least one unnamed population currently allocated to the former. A closer eye will have to be applied to populations between the Mississippi and the Rockies, as there may be little or no barrier to gene flow in this region, but isolated distinct pockets can't be ruled out (could Devil's Lake tigers be distinct, while others are simply gray-like blotched/barred tigers?).

It's hard to generalize. Because there are no absolute rules, and nature wouldn't obey such anyway, we have to examine such borderline examples on a case by case basis. From the details you provide, I would conclude that you are starting with multiple valid species, and ending with either a single already-named species [children re-merged with parental populations] or a single new species [sibling diversity combined into a single breeding group].

I think what I failed to clarify enough in my examples is that based under current taxonomy, the homogeneous groups are considered non-homogeneous because of the morphological rather than molecular classification.
That part, I got. It's not especially important. Inherited morphology is molecularly determined by genes subject to selection. "Molecular classification" is determined by genes which are largely immune to selective pressures and thus mutate slowly, like clockwork. The former identifies adaptation, while the latter only identifies gradual accumulation of changes. Anything heritable can identify species status. One fixed difference is all it takes [in principle]. Non-differentiated traits do not disprove a status identified already by differentiated traits. While species are defined by shared traits, they are distinguished by differences. It is therefore easier to prove distinction than conspecificity. It is easy to prove a one- or multiple-feature difference than it is to prove that no features differ. The latter is basically what is needed to prove populations as a single species.

and I totally reject the nonsense about %DNA differences, since that defines some things which routinely and ongoingly reproduce as part of the same population and have free gene exchange different species.
This makes no sense. You cannot have it both ways. Those "%DNA differences" cannot exist if you have "free gene exchange". They can only exist if that gene exchange is limited. That limitation can be post-reproductive, as in the form of lack of hybrid vigor. For example, Dicamptodon tenebrosus and D.ensatus interbreed regularly in ONE coastal stream, but their genes are only introgressed into two such streams nearby. While they are able to interbreed freely, gene exchange is not "free" and is confined to the actual zone of contact.

I can't fully accept the traditional definition though, because there are glaring exceptions
Nor should you. This so-called traditional definition is wrong, and as I already pointed out, a fallacious argument. The correct argument is that inability to interbreed proves organisms to be separate species. The converse argument is logically incorrect because the two are not mutually exclusive choices. An hypothesis and an alternate hypothesis must be mutually exclusive. I would argue that this so-called traditional definition is simply a common misconception. The actual definition is based on INability to interbreed, and is correct. The fallacy is formally "false dilemma" and "denying the antecedent".

There are cases where two distinct species hybridise and the hybrids form new species. This is well documented in sunflowers as well as several others, although it is a very rare phenomenon
It's actually very common. I could provide an extensive list of plants, and I don't even know the plants all that well. In herptiles, many species of Darevskia, Aspidoscelis, Kentropyx, Lepidophyma, and various others are parthenogens of hybrid origin. Hyla chrysoscelis, Plethodon teyahalee, and a raft of others are sexual species of hybrid origin.

Many popular modern definitions of 'species' immediately count populations as different species the very moment they are geographically isolated. If you were to introduce a few on to an island, they would suddenly be defined as a different species. To me that's just stupid; surely if the only thing blocking gene flow is geography and no differences have *yet* formed, they're not *yet* different species, so geographic isolation is irrelevant.
I agree with your viewpoint, but not your opening statement. While it does happen, I think that isolated populations are usually described as species IF they demonstrate differences from related species. While it's true that such differences are sometimes proven illusory, I don't think it's true that it's common to recognize species solely based on isolation. The late Joseph Collins wrote several times with regard to isolated named subspecies, that these should be recognized as full species because they do not interbreed with others, OR they should not be recognized at all, because they cannot be distinguished.

A very big part of the push towards people being 'splitters' rather than 'lumpers' is the desire to publish and label rather than it being correct or appropriate.
I'm not sure that's really true. Most of what I have read [which is a LOT] concerning new or cryptic species, the splitting is usually well-supported by a suite of features endemic to one population and not another, including reproductive isolation [biological, not geographical]. There are few cases in modern times in which lumping has been a good option. The only instance that comes immediately to mind is the synonymization of Ranitomeya biolat and R.lamasi with R.sirensis. Each was initially described on the basis of a small number of highly distinctive color forms from different localities. Additional samples showed all three to overlap in color and pattern, and to have a common and undifferentiated gene pool. Most cases of lumping involve artificially combining populations which each have unique and independant sets of traits and which do not freely interbreed. It really comes down to a refinement and standardization of what a [sexual] species really is, and realization that all the species concepts of the past had one basic feature in common which is usually readily identified by genetic testing: conspecifics share gene pools which are not shared with heterospecifics.
 

Azhael

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That should seem obvious, and it is quite possible for very closely related species to be more isolated than distant relatives. That's because new species can easily arise by changes in chromosome numbers or other wholesale changes in the genome. Such changes frequently result in incompatible gametes. Distant species with similar chromosome numbers and structures may be more able to create a viable embryo than siblings with drastically different numbers.


The compatibility of rather distant relatives is sometimes quite shocking. I remember when i first heard of the fertile hybrids of Pantherophis x Lampropeltis, i could barely believe it. It was quite illuminating as my concept of species , at the time, was the "basic" and erroneous one.
The pythonidae hybrids are also very interesting.

Johnny, i´m not sure i understood your thought experiment, but it seems to me that what you are describing is a clinal distribution? The perceived morphological variations between populations could be polimorphisms in a gene pool like what you can see, i believe, in some dartfrog species, or humans, for exampl (in fact is it just me, or are you talking about humans?). If that´s the case, i don´t think the independent species status of each original population makes any sense.

I´m not sure if i already asked you about this once, FrogEyes, in which case i apologise. Your paragraph about subspecies got me thinking about the situation with certain european caudates. Ichthyosaura alpestris cyreni, for example, has full geographical isolation and would never meet other populations naturally, but they can produce fertile hybrids and the morphological differences between populations are small (and yet sufficient for identification). By your description, this grants an automatic species status which i understand, but in that case what are the criteria that are being used to classify them as a subspecies? Is it just arbitrary or perosnal preference in this case?
The more recent changes in iberian Podarcis also got me thinking about it. They are recognizing full species all over the place and it seems to me their criteria, if applied to Ichthyosaura would be cause for splitting. I don´t quite understand why the "cristatus complex" of the genus Triturus are recognized as full species, but the subspecies of other european caudates are not. The Triturus species make sense to me, it´s the various subspecies of european caudates that make less and less sense to me as time goes by.
 
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Sdaji

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FrogEyes: Far too long a post for me to spare the time to reply in detail, but I disagree with a lot of what you've said.

One simply point is that you can have percentage DNA differences with free genetic exchange. Let's say in one continent there is a hot, dry side, and 2,000km away a wet, cold side with a gradual change from one extreme to the other. Let's say a population of whatever animal covers the entire continent and there are no geographic barriers, the whole continent is covered in a continuous population. Each individual only moves a few hundred metres in its life, but gene exchange freely occurs across the entire range.

There will be notable genetic difference between extremes of the range. Depending on countless variables, that difference may be small or massive. Alleles not relevant to fitness will freely flow from coast to coast. Alleles which favour one environment over another will be in higher frequency in those favoured environments.

Countless real examples of the above exist. Sometimes these situations result in speciation, sometimes the situation remains stable without speciation. Again, countless examples of both exist.

You mention species distribution modelling, this was the main topic my honours project revolved around, and my focus species was a hybrid parthenogen. I don't particularly agree with what you're saying about distribution modelling.
 

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Outstanding. My somewhat primitive experiment is working as planned. Once again, you folks have read my mind.

In the interest of keeping up the discourse, I will reveal that in fact my theoretical examples are in fact based on both what I refer to as the Tigrinum complex and the Triturus complex. To an extent, the former Pachytriton complex is in there too, but up until recently, they were in flux due to a lack of solid location data.

So, lets continue with what we have learned from each other and apply this collected data to those two groups.

Tigrinum complex: what needs to be done to clarify this mess

triturus complex: how has linnean taxonomy and molecular taxonomy created controversy
?

Sorry for the poor syntax, this portable keyboard is miniscule...
 

Sdaji

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We don't have any native newts or salamanders and can only legally keep one here (axolotls) so I haven't bothered looking at the taxonomic situation of the salamanders you're interested in, but we have no end of similar situations over here, as with everywhere else in the world. Ultimately, what you label them is of little consequence. They are what they are and that doesn't change according to what you label them. Hypothetically, if you came up with the best possible taxonomic description for them, you probably wouldn't get the majority agreeing with you anyway and certainly would have a consensus, so you'd only end up even more frustrated. Often, quite easy is to simply understand what is going on, regardless of how you formally describe or label it, and since people aren't going to agree anyway, that's generally a satisfying end point.

Pretty arrogant and condescending to describe what you've done as an experiment everyone has been the victim of... but probably pretty accurate and justified :lol:
 

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Pretty arrogant and condescending to describe what you've done as an experiment everyone has been the victim of... but probably pretty accurate and justified :lol:


Arrogant, yes, but sometimes one must bait the hook!

This is mostly just a way to get people discussing a topic I find fascinating,
 

jaster

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To just butt in with my two cents, I rely on the different concepts of species. It's always dependent on the situation. I remember seeing a slide which had every 'concept' on it, and they are all used in my mind.

I really enjoy reading about things that seem to refute the term 'species'. Like, how could a Eurycea wildera produce viable offspring with a E. bislineata from Long Island? And the whole unisexual Ambystomid complex which has traces of A. barbouri in it, and all those crazy ploidys?

Just a few herps doing wacky things :)
 
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  • Shane douglas:
    with axolotls would I basically have to keep buying and buying new axolotls to prevent inbred breeding which costs a lot of money??
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  • Thorninmyside:
    Not necessarily but if you’re wanting to continue to grow your breeding capacity then yes. Breeding axolotls isn’t a cheap hobby nor is it a get rich quick scheme. It costs a lot of money and time and deditcation
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    @Thorninmyside, I Lauren chen
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    Would Chinese fire belly newts be more or less inclined towards an aquatic eft set up versus Japanese . I'm raising them and have abandoned the terrarium at about 5 months old and switched to the aquatic setups you describe. I'm wondering if I could do this as soon as they morph?
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