WHAT NEWT is this? -Paramesotriton species- NEW PICS- (Further Discussion)

[steve]

Ok Guys/Gals here's the new photos of the warty newt.

****according to these sites:

* http://members.tripod.com/~JARClark/china.htm#para

* http://www.caudata.org/cgi-bin/phot...xiensis&photo=Paramesotriton_guangxiensis.jpg

___

I may have 1 Paramesotriton fuzhongensis and 1 Paramesotriton hongkongensis and/or Paramesotriton guangxiensis "leaning more towards the hongkong"

__

I HAVE RULED OUT:
Paramesotriton deloustali
Paramesotriton chinensis?????
Paramesotriton caudopunctatus
__


LET the discussion procede. TELL me what you think.


SteveL.

 

[cloth_kitten]

Those newts are Paramesotriton Guangxiensis.I also have 3 of them,they require running stream like cool conditions.

 

[mark]

I agree and disagree. The bottom newt in the picture is Paramesotriton hongkongensis, prominent cranial ridges seem to be present and the skin is extremely smooth for a Paramesotriton species. The middle newt is Paramesotriton guanxiensis, notice how much wartier it is to the bottom newt. The top newt is questionable, it seems to be more like the hongkongensis. There is much work that needs to be done with Paramesotriton species still. P hongkongensis is not officially recognized, though it does exist as can clearly be seen through your animals and through animals I have kept and a few of my friends have kept. There are many species of Paramesotriton that show up in pet stores that do not match the descriptions of any known species, so likely when all work on the genus has finished there will be some new species.

Mark

 

[username]

HELLO, I have a pair of chinese warty newts, but I am now confused as to which Paramesotriton they are??? But I have found a couple of sites that may be of help...I DO NO KNOW HOW TO UPLOAD PICS OF MY OWN YET....

http://members.tripod.com/~JARClark/china.htm#para (Asian Salamander Website)

http://home.hccnet.nl/herpetologie.links/salamanders.htm (Salamander photo galary)

 

[mark]

As I previously said there is much work needed to be done in the Paramesotriton genus. Paramesotriton gaunxiensis and fuzhongensis seem to be especially hard to tell apart. For the most part, P chinensis is the most common Paramesotriton followed by gaunxiensis, then hongkongensis, caudopunctatus, and finally actual fuzhongensis. There also seem to be some Paramesotritons that show up that do not match any species description. This further complicates things. All in all though, most store bought Paramesotritons will probably be chinensis or gaunxiensis, though hongkongensis seems to be showing up more commonly. As for Paramesotriton deloustali, it is critically endangered, possibly extinct due to the leaking of chemicals into the one pond they were known from in Tam Dao national park. However, I have read a report online in which four Tam Dao salamanders (deloustali) were found in a Vietnamese market after they had supposedly been killed off, so hopefully there are some other populations of these spectacular salamanders out there.

Mark

 

[chris]

does anyone have p.guanxiensis female for sale?

 

[jessica]

Hi Chris,
Seeing the dorsal view photos, I would agree that the bottom one is most likely honkongensis, but the middle and top ones are questionable. The top one appears to be honkongensis for the most part, and the middle one could still be guanxiensis or fuzhongensis. based on availablility alone, the middle one is most likely guanxiensis.
-Jessica

 

[tj]

Now I'M confused! The two I have look similar to the one in the middle. I bought them as chinensis, but then they don't anything at all like the ones shown at http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/caresheets/P_chinensis.html

Could mine possibly be guanxiensis or fuzhongensis?

 

[tj]

But if they are indeed guanxiensis, what might that make these?

I originally bought them as P. hongkongensis, but they've subsequently been identified by some well-informed people as possibly guanxiensis...

 

[kai]

Hi Tim,

without having the specimens in front of me, I'd guess that the above 3 are guangxiensis and the lower 3 (judging from only the upper pic) are probably fuzhongensis. Note that due to wholesalers sloppyness more than one species can be present in a given shipment and that further taxonomic research will result in additional species being described - actual species limits are currently hard to guess.

Best wishes,
kai

 

[tj]

Hi Kai

Thanks for the informed guesses!

Well, one thing I wonder is whether or not the tiny, sharp protrusions or prickles found throughout the bodies of the warties in the first set of pics can be used to readily distinguish this species from others...

Whereas the skin texture of this warty is "prickly", that of the kind in the second set of pics is "lumpy" or "warty", moreso than some I've seen, including the one at the bottom in Steve's pic).

Prickly. lumpy or smooth....ah, if it were only that simple!

A Copeia-published study I read the other day speaks of "evident differences in hyoid apparatus and skull characters among five species in this (Paramesotriton) genus." Would be so nice to have a skull character comparison chart!

The warties in the first set of pics that seem like fuzhonensis to you definitely have sharper skulls, and somewhat flatter, less prominent ridges along their backs than the suspect guangxiensis.

Different temperaments as well -- the ones in the second set of pics are all extremely calm and sluggish (one might even say boring...though not to me!), and not particularly aggressive during feeding.

Here are a couple of other pics to give you a better sense of the skin texture of those in the second set of pics:

To add to the intrigue, as early as tomorrow I plan to acquire a few adult warties that have red dorsal stripes!

Cheers

Tim

 

[aaron]

As far as I know, caudopunctatus usually have dorsal stripes.

~Aaron

 

[tj]

Hi Aaron
Yep, that's certainly the case with my first batch.

But the warties I plan to acquire are definitely not caudos. They're more like the ones in the second set of 3 pics I posted yesterday, though more light brown, brighter in color, smoother and less warty. The red dorsal stripes on them are faint.

They look a bit like these ones being sold at another shop as chinensis:

http://www.w-monster.com/images/saramandra/sinakobuimori.htm

In fact, the one in the upper right hand corner has...whadaya know, a red dorsal stripe!

Tim

 

[john]

I thought fuzhongensis had been abolished recently as just another part of chinensis?

 

[tj]

Hmmm...who decides these things anyway? Some board of mad scientists somewhere I reckon...

By the way, I just noticed this passage in last December's Urodela Newsletter (5):

"Frank (Pasmans) also briefly explained his view of the differences between P. chinensis and P. fuzhongensis. Here are the some of the points that he summed up. P. chinensis has a more faint grey-brown coloration (when not stressed). Typical for this species are some scattered yellow dots on the lateral side and at the attachment points of the limbs. The warts are like little knobbles and not pointed. The animals are stoutly built. P. fuzhongensis have a darker brown coloration, and their warts are more sharply pointed. They lack the yellow dots."

I'd be interested in seeing other people's warties for comparison if they're relatively sure what they've got.

In the meantime, I have a purported chinensis arriving tomorrow and will check it and the suspect fuzhongensis for yellow dots!

Tim

 

[tj]

oops...neglected to cite this from the same issue:

"Our Belgian Paramesotriton specialist, Henri Janssens, gave his viewpoints on the differences between P. chinensis and P. fuzhongensis. Henri has been able to breed both species and showed us some slides of larvae which convinced most of the participants that these animals are NOT the same species. The larvae of P. chinensis are entirely black, even the gills. The larvae of P. fuzhongensis have red gills and white lateral dots. The metamorphosed juveniles of both the species have a strikingly different coloration: P. chinensis are darker and more black, while P. fuzhongensis are more brown with a red vertebral ridge. The differences were further strengthened by statistical data involving very clear differences in the total length at metamorphosis (done on the basis of individual measurements of 200 - 300 juveniles). Other differences: The adult P. chinensis have a higher tail, and the underside of the tail has an unbroken red/orange line. The underside tail of P. fuzhongensis is also orange, but the orange is sometimes broken up by the brown coloration. There was also a remark on the difference between the distance of the eye relative to the jaw in both the adult species..."

But you did say, John, that things may have since changed...
Any details as to when, where, how, why?

 

[kai]

John, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence published on species identification in Paramesotriton for many, many years...

Tim, in systematics there is nothing like a board of scientists deciding what gets accepted or not. Publications in peer reviewed journals should assure that they measure up to a minimum of scientific standards but even this isn't guaranteed. Moreover, you'll often find widely disparate opinions from competing specialists (even when based on exactly the same hard data!). So usually the general consensus of scientists (interested in a given case) decides what finds it way into text books, faunal lists, etc. Note however, that science is no democracy and, thus, the majority view doesn't need to be of any relevance.

Henri isn't by any means a formally trained scientist but I'll gladly take any of his suggestions (which are based on very careful observations) - IMNSHO he's the person who currently knows most about Paramesotriton.

And, of course, use whatever works to distinguish different stocks (coloration, warts/skin texture, head proportions, etc. pp.). But make sure not to miss variation within populations.

Best wishes,
kai

 

[caleb]

Hi Kai.

Isn't the ICZN (http://www.iczn.org) a board of scientists deciding what gets accepted? I am genuinely asking this, I don't know much about the politics of systematics.

Has anyone here been involved in proposing a new species of plant or animal? I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be interested in knowing how it works.

 

[kai]

Hi Caleb,

Well, I've described some taxa (and there are way too many on my backburner...).

Actually, the ICZN just sets the basic rules which you have to follow so that the names you are going to propose become available for zoology (botany and microbiology have different albeit basically similar rules). This is pretty dry legislature stuff which you have to follow like a lawyer who is going to court. However, in biological systematics there isn't something like a jury or a judge to make definite decisions. So a proposal get's evaluated by anybody interested and it's up to you wether you follow it and use the name or wether you decide to go with former usage (or use the available name for just a subset of populations, etc.). Basically systematics is a kind of anarchy.

Taxonomic rules just guide you on what name to use once you have made a decision (e.g. which specimens should belong to a given species)... However, the scientific quality of this underlying decision isn't governed by the taxonomic rules and so you're basically on your own. Of course, in the real world there are also career decisions, peer pressure, journal editors, politics, etc. but this hasn't always avoided really silly things like describing an introduced species as a new species of a native genus or "accidental" descriptions just based on a pic or a mere reference.

Best wishes,
kai

 

[caleb]

Kai, that's most interesting. I guess the fact that there are different bodies for zoology, botany and microbiology is the reason that Proteus is an amphibian as well as a bacterium...