What should i expect to find in the pacific NW?

[burningchick3n]

With the weather clearing up im wondering what i will expect to find in the good ol' NW. Any thoughts?

 

[taricha29]

Baby garter snakes might be out!

 

[John]

Where in the northwest are you? It really depends on your area.

 

[burningchick3n]

Where in the northwest are you? It really depends on your area.

Northern Washington (Bellingham), about 30 miles from the British columbia border.

 

[asfouts]

Hey I live near you in the Edmonds area. So in our neck Of the woods you need a fishing permit to collect any amphibs from the wild (I assume you are over 16). We at pet stores are very very limited. So thats what I have resorted to is collecting wild specimens. So depends on where you live. At a pond shore you will find blotched tiger salamanders, rough skinned newts, giant pacific salamanders, northwestern salamanders (subspecies of giant salamander), northern red legged frogs, leopard frogs, green frogs, cascade frogs, tailed frogs (all look virtually identical) unfortunately some bullfrogs (incredibly invasive), garter and ribbon snakes come out in the summer whenever it keeps at about 65-70 farhenheit. Chorus frogs are quite common and there are rare blue morphs of this species. In old wood or under logs you will find our mole salamanders whom do not travel to the water to breed. They are called Plethodontids or lungless salamanders. These must be in moist areas. We have ensatinas (I have one currently), van dyke salamanders, dunns salamander, red-backed salamanders, and Long toed salamanders. Under some instances you will see the small american toad which looks like a small frog and the Western toad. I have worked with long toed salamanders and chorus frogs the most. Any other questions I would be delighted to help with.

 

[flyingSquirrel]

In some areas, when it's warmer, you may also find Northwestern Alligator Lizard (Elgaria coerulea principis)

 

[asfouts]

In some areas, when it's warmer, you may also find Northwestern Alligator Lizard (Elgaria coerulea principis)[/QUOT

I have never seen an alligator lizard on the Washington seaboard. Only in Spokane or Wenatchee which agrees with warmth. But then again we are supposed to have terrapins and red eared sliders so I am not claiming to have seen all.

 

[FrogEyes]

Ok, first off apologies, because I don't like ripping apart a post, especially one which tries to be helpful [and more or less IS]. However, there are just too many errors above for me not to...

Hey I live near you in the Edmonds area. So in our neck Of the woods you need a fishing permit to collect any amphibs from the wild (I assume you are over 16). We at pet stores are very very limited. So thats what I have resorted to is collecting wild specimens.

I won't correct this, as it would require me going back and reading the legislation, but this is the first I have heard of it being possible to collect amphibians legally in WA. If memory serves, the two introduced frogs can be hunted with a fishing permit - but nothing else.

So depends on where you live. At a pond shore you will find blotched tiger salamanders,

Not on the coast. Tigers are only found in limited parts of the arid interior of WA.

rough skinned newts, giant pacific salamanders, northwestern salamanders (subspecies of giant salamander),

Northwesterns are not related to giants. They are a separate species in a separate genus, and many authorities include them in a different family. They're cousins of the long-toes and tigers, not the giants.

northern red legged frogs, leopard frogs,

I could be wrong...but leopard frogs also have a restricted distribution only in the interior of WA, not on the coast.

green frogs, cascade frogs, tailed frogs (all look virtually identical)

Not sure what you mean by the 'identical' comment? If you refer to the two tailed frog species, you're correct, but anywhere vaguely close to the coast, they will be coastal tailed frogs, not Rocky Mountain tailed frogs. The latter are only known with certainty in WA from the extreme SE corner.

unfortunately some bullfrogs (incredibly invasive), garter and ribbon snakes come out in the summer whenever it keeps at about 65-70 farhenheit.

No ribbon snakes. In the northwest coast there will be wandering garters, Puget Sound garters, and northwestern garters.

Chorus frogs are quite common and there are rare blue morphs of this species. In old wood or under logs you will find our mole salamanders whom do not travel to the water to breed. They are called Plethodontids or lungless salamanders.

"Mole salamanders" are ambystomatids, which breed in water. Lungless salamanders are plethodontids, which mostly develop on land. Two different families.

These must be in moist areas. We have ensatinas (I have one currently), van dyke salamanders, dunns salamander, red-backed salamanders,

Neither Dunn's nor Van Dyke's [=Washington] salamanders come that far north, although Larch Mountain salamanders come close near Snoqualmie Pass. The red-backs are actually "western red-backs". If you omit "western", someone might think you're talking about a different species only found nearer the east coast.

and Long toed salamanders.

While long-toes LOOK like lungless salamanders, they're mole salamanders.

Under some instances you will see the small american toad which looks like a small frog

American toads do not look like small frogs, and don't occur within 2000 miles of there. Their cousin the Rocky Mountain toad has a limited distribution in some of the canyons in the arid interior, but again doesn't occur on the coast.

and the Western toad. I have worked with long toed salamanders and chorus frogs the most. Any other questions I would be delighted to help with.

A willingness to help is always appreciated

I would recommend several relevant field guides, but I think the two most useful in your area would be Amphibians of the Pacific Northwest [Seattle Audubon Society] and Reptiles of the Northwest [Lone Pine].

 

[asfouts]

I hate to be a nuisance but I am not wrong in many fields. I have heard of very rare pops of tigers living on the coast and if you check herp maps released by surveys you will find blotched tigers living on the northwest coast. Also check www.dnr.gov/Publications/amp_nh_herpatlas_list.pdf. leopards live in our area and I have a pic on my album that according to many features in its facial construction is in fact a leopard.

I will admit after second look at proper guides the Northwestern and giant salamander are not of the same species. A stupid mistake they are not of the same genus Ambystoma and Dicamptodon. Cascade frogs are apparantly another species of frog that look considerably similar to the Northern red legged frog but lack the red on the leg and stay smaller than red-legs.And by the 'identical' comment I refer to a first glance at the frog. There are in fact subtle differences in the species (like the nub of a tail on cascade tailed frogs).

Also ribbon snakes and garter snakes are easily told apart because the garter snake bites as a defense whereas the ribbon snake secretes a paste and never bites. Also the Garter snake has a more defined jaw. I learned the difference after being bit by so many snakes. I also have pics of wild caught ribbon snakes in my area including an orange morph. I could be very well wrong for the 'mole salamander' idea, since wikipedia was my source there. And I should have specified the american toad is in fact the "american green toad" I now understand the importance of full names haha.

I could be completely wrong about the classification of the long toed salamanders. However, the couple I found in my window well produced an offspring without the need of water. I try not to spout nonsense without extensive research, but I may have misinterpreted a sentence or had a bad source for the misinformation. I also have 11 years behind me in gathering specimens and recording data. Oh almost forgot I have read the legislation extensively looking for what I need to do exactly and what is legal. You are allowed to collect at max 4 specimens of a certain species and only in places that are not protected by law (protective belts), where it is illegal to catch anything.

All invasive species are encouraged to be taken out of the wild such as the red swamp crayfish. Anyways I did not see as many mistakes as you did, and I am completely able to admit being wrong as I can often mis-classify species or misinterpret info, so if you could site your evidence I would not be offended to admit being wrong. Especially the non-existence of ribbon snakes in this area. I was confused too about Tigers being here. I thought of tigers as being an interior salamander as well, until I read "dnr.gov," then found an article online about the existence of the blotched tiger salamander here. I had no clue and I have never seen them here, or turtles for that matter.

Other sited herp guides:
Washington Fish and wildlife
Invasive Species Council, Washington State, Home Page
Barron's Reptiles, Amphibians, and Invertebrates

 

[asfouts]

Darn you are right on the garter snake. The ones I found are identical. Okay I have a question then. What IS the difference between garters and ribbons??? Because I have met conflicting herp guides on the actual diversion between the two. I always thought that garters had a more ridgleline looking head, but apparantly the western garter has no sharp ridgeline. Also I thought garters characteristically bit people upon picking them up. While ribbons secreted waste. I also though that garters were thicker in girth and grew longer. Please help. Im so confused.

 

[FrogEyes]

I hate to be a nuisance but I am not wrong in many fields. I have heard of very rare pops of tigers living on the coast and if you check herp maps released by surveys you will find blotched tigers living on the northwest coast. Also check www.dnr.gov/Publications/amp_nh_herpatlas_list.pdf.

Your link is just a list of species found in WA. It doesn't say anything about actual distribution. Updated link: http://www.dnr.wa.gov/Publications/amp_nh_herpatlas_list.pdf
No record here:
Distribution Map - Washington Herp Atlas
Nor in any of my field guides, and I think I have all of them for the region.

leopards live in our area and I have a pic on my album that according to many features in its facial construction is in fact a leopard.

Could be, but like the tigers, I know of no records:
Distribution Map - Washington Herp Atlas

Cascade frogs are apparantly another species of frog that look considerably similar to the Northern red legged frog but lack the red on the leg and stay smaller than red-legs.

That sounds accurate, but it wasn't clear in the way you wrote in the previous post.

And by the 'identical' comment I refer to a first glance at the frog. There are in fact subtle differences in the species (like the nub of a tail on cascade tailed frogs)

Tailed frogs are very easy to ID. They're very slow moving, have a rounder snout and flatter head, rough skin, and have vertical pupils. Ony males have a copulatory organ.

And I should have specified the american toad is in fact the "american green toad" I now understand the importance of full names haha. I have seen the american green toad on Blakely Island in the San Juans and occurs in fish and wildlife surveys.

I know of no animal by this name. Eastern, western, and Sonoran green toads [Anaxyrus debilis debilis, A.d.insidior, A.retiformis] are desert animals not found at all in Washington. However, western [boreal] toads come in various combinations of colors, including shades of green. This is the only true toad known in most of Washington, although it likely consists of more than one cryptic species.

I could be completely wrong about the classification of the long toed salamanders.

Ambystoma macrodactylum. If it's an Ambystoma, it belongs to Ambystomatidae. It's possible you've confused them with some large specimens of Plethodon vehiculum. The former lay their eggs on sticks and rocks in water. The latter lay them under rocks or inside logs, where the female guards them until hatching.

However, the couple I found in my window well produced an offspring without the need of water.

How?

I try not to spout nonsense without extensive research, but I may have misinterpreted a sentence or had a bad source for the misinformation. I also have 11 years behind me in gathering specimens and recording data.

Mistakes happen, wires get crossed. I certainly understand more now than I did 10, 20, or 30 years ago.

Oh almost forgot I have read the legislation extensively looking for what I need to do exactly and what is legal. You are allowed to collect at max 4 specimens of a certain species and only in places that are not protected by law (protective belts), where it is illegal to catch anything. All invasive species are encouraged to be taken out of the wild such as the red swamp crayfish.

Many here would appreciate a link to that. WA wildlife law is available online, and in the many discussions I have seen [and in the legislation I have read], there is no provision to legally keep native herps as pets in WA. Animals considered to be potential invasives [as most salamanders are in WA] are also prohibited from possession. Links for this are provided in the legalities fora.

Darn you are right on the garter snake. The ones I found are identical. Okay I have a question then. What IS the difference between garters and ribbons??? Because I have met conflicting herp guides on the actual diversion between the two. I always thought that garters had a more ridgleline looking head, but apparantly the western garter has no sharp ridgeline. Also I thought garters characteristically bit people upon picking them up. While ribbons secreted waste. I also though that garters were thicker in girth and grew longer. Please help. Im so confused

Ribbon snakes and mountain meadow snakes are garters. A garter is any snake of the genus Thamnophis [mountain meadow snakes lay eggs and are currently placed in Adelophis, but they need to be reassigned to Thamnophis]. There are over 30 species of Thamnophis, and the only ones called ribbon snakes are Thamnophis sauritus and T.proximus. Neither occurs in WA. In NW WA, there are T.sirtalis pickeringi, T.elegans vagrans [also called T.e.nigrescens in that area], and T.ordinoides. Elsewhere in WA, you can find T.sirtalis fitchi, T.sirtalis concinnus, and possibly T.elegans elegans. Identifying garters typical requires examining scale counts, scale arrangement, and color pattern. I have found the most common garter out there to usually be the northwestern garter, T.ordinoides. Northwesterns are small, slender, and mild-mannered, but very variable in color and pattern. A rule of thumb is "if you can't identify it, it's a northwestern".

Get both the books I recommended. They're very different styles, but more or less up to date and containing reliable means of identifying species in the Northwest.

 

[asfouts]

Well... My world is upside down haha. I meant no insult in conflicting with your experience I should know better then to believe everything on the internet. And that website was just to tell me the species of washington. It was late last night, I should have explained that the website is just a list of species. My actual distribution info came from wikipedia or a random map under google searching "[species] distribution" I will definately checkout the books recommended. Good thing im only 17, I have room to learn and not so set in my ways yet. The window well salamanders after second thought are probably not related. The third tiny salamander must have fallen in at night and taken residence under the same pot. And there are very easy ways to ID the species of frog around here.The american green toad was in my Barron's book and I may have misidentified a toad fresh out of the larval state as a green american toad. I found it swimming in a lake on Blakely Island. Anyway I will try and find the legislation I speak of. But I am nowhere near a lawyer and may have misinterpreted, I do know under this license you are allowed to collect amphibs not protected by growth protection areas. I also know that in some areas they remain incredibly broad. Has anyone asked a fish and wildlife ranger? Also the garter snake post helps thanks. Here I was being a fool thinking they were two different snakes. I will try and be more clear with my thoughts, I often just shotgun everything I have read

 

[asfouts]

I am purchasing the books, thank you for the tip. I have so much to learn

 

[asfouts]

Posting Legislation. It basically states all native animals possesed must be collected lawfully and you must have info on where you caught it. So I am not in violation of the law, but thank you for your concern. Here is the link, all native animals are protected, which means you need a permit to collect, and some animals are just illegal to catch, period. But as far as I can tell no amphibian or reptile is under concern. Also under another branch of the WAC there is transport rules and the invasive species are apparantly protected, but you are heavily penalized if you introduce an invasive species.
WAC title 232, article 12, sub-article 64
Sited evidence from legislation:
WAC 232-12-064: Live wildlife.