Question: Who said beef heart is not suitable for axolotls???

[axolodemia]

I just realized that I received negative reputation points for recommending beef heart as a food for axolotls... and whoever did it didn't call me out in a thread or somewhere that I could actually respond.

Excerpt from Developmental Biology of the Axolotl:

Once past the brine shrimp stage, many laboratories feed their animals beef heart or liver. This meat should be trimmed of all fat and gristle and is most conveniently handled when frozen as blocks approximately 3-5 cm square by 10-15 cm long. At the time of feeding, fine slivers can be trimmed off with a sharp knife for younger animals. Larger pieces are cut for adults; a convenient size would be 2 x 5 x 50 mm. Adults are generally fed 5 or 6 pieces, 3 times a week; juveniles are fed daily. At the Ottawa colony, a mature female needed for spawning condition will also often be fed daily over a 3 to 4 week period. Animals will learn to pick up food from the bottom of their container if it is simply thrown in.

Some laboratories dip the meat in bone meal or vitamins, but at the Ottawa colony we have found that our animals seem healthy on a steady diet of beef heart with only an occasional supplement of surplus larvae!

Now, those are actual scientists in charge of laboratory axolotl colonies. Who is giving me negative reputation points for recommending what these scientists use for their axolotls? Are you a scientist? Do you know better than the people who wrote this book?

I request to have the negative reputation stricken from the record.

 

[Chinadog]

I haven't given negative rep, but the paper that you're referring to is twenty seven years old!
Beef heart is mentioned in most books of that age, but husbandry methods have moved on and improved since then.
I'm sure there are people who feed their Axolotls mammal protein today and they'll eat it, but when so many other food options like worms or pellets for example are known to be properly balanced and nutritionally perfect, there's just no need to resort to things that aren't.

 

[axolodemia]

The paper that you're referring to is twenty seven years old!
Beef heart is mentioned in most books of that age, but husbandry methods have moved on and improved since then.
I'm sure there are people who feed their Axolotls mammal protein today and they'll eat it, but when so many other food options like worms or pellets for example are known to be properly balanced and nutritionally perfect, there's just no need to resort to things that aren't.

Okay, see, I can respect you for coming out and saying that in an open forum where there is chance for rational discussion.

What I'm saying is that if you disagree with someone's husbandry practices, bring it up where it's mentioned. This is a forum, we're here to discuss things. The thread was about axolotl diet... if you disagree with what I said, let's talk it out.

I resent whoever resorted to directly giving me a negative rating rather than discuss the topic in the appropriate venue, and I would like to go through the proper channels to have the matter rectified. I put in a message to the webmaster and am awaiting response.

 

[LSuzuki]

I agree that negative rating should be reserved for egregiously bad advice, vs advice that is simply outdated, and it make good sense to discuss disputed advice in the thread it was given in, since the threads get searched by people wanting answers and so should not be left in a misleading state. (I think it is a minority of people who ask rather than look for answers first, but maybe I'm kidding myself.)

But with respect to beef heart and related food issues, it would be awesome to see some citations to peer-reviewed publications discussing what has been found to be nutritionally sound or not sound. I haven't tried searching for that info, and the only thing I have run across is someone saying they used to feed beef heart but decided not to since beef heart wasn't part of the axolotl diet in the wild. However, that certainly doesn't "prove" it isn't a good source of nutrition, and the same logic applies to Canadian nightcrawlers.

I find myself wondering how much of the current "conventional wisdom" is based on actual experimental data, how much on observations that haven't been verified, and how much just sort-of happened.

Meanwhile, I will continue to stick with pellets and earthworms since I'm not a nutritionist and many successful breeders have had great success with them. :happy:

 

[Chinadog]

Okay, see, I can respect you for coming out and saying that in an open forum where there is chance for rational discussion.

What I'm saying is that if you disagree with someone's husbandry practices, bring it up where it's mentioned. This is a forum, we're here to discuss things. The thread was about axolotl diet... if you disagree with what I said, let's talk it out.

I resent whoever resorted to directly giving me a negative rating rather than discuss the topic in the appropriate venue, and I would like to go through the proper channels to have the matter rectified. I put in a message to the webmaster and am awaiting response.

Being as you have raised the reputation matter with someone else I'll say no more about that, but if you decide to post advice in a thread, please try to check its up to date and correct.
As I said before, Axolotls will eat beef heart and may survive for long enough to breed in a laboratory, but although raw meat contains protein, it's very low in minerals like calcium. A diet lacking in calcium will eventually lead to metabolic bone disease.
I will say that beef heart could be an option as an absolute last resort, but feeding it regularly for extended periods will be detrimental to your Axolotl's health

 

[onecrazyredhead]

Looks like beef heart has calcium, not as much as nightcrawlers but has it. I believe that nightcrawlers would be better by nutrition facts but I sure beef heart is not as bad as other foods.

 

[Chinadog]

I said it's low in calcium, not that it has no calcium at all.
The important thing though, is the calcium to phosphorus ratio.Foods that are fed often or as a staple should have a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 2:1 and beef heart falls way short on that count. Its easy to correct this ratio in sub-optimal food for terrestrial species by dusting with a vitamin/mineral supplement like Nutrabal or similar, but that's very difficult with aquatic species for obvious reasons, so it's usually easiest to feed them a staple that has the correct ratio to begin with.

 

[AxolotlChris]

I've always like John Clare's wording: 'The last time I checked, axolotls do not prey on cows in the wild...'

Axolotls - Feeding

If you do believe you receive negative feedback, which you think is unfair, or not based on facts but only opinion, you can always contact an Administrator of the forum!

 

[Jennewt]

Negative rep removed. A lot of old scientific references refer to using heart or liver as the food source. Nowdays, labs are more likely to use a pellet food that includes vitamins and minerals. I fed my first group of newts (1980s-90s) with mostly liver for many years. It may not be the best food, but also not the worst.

 

[axolodemia]

Thank you all for taking the time to discuss this matter.

As for the diet of the axolotl in the wild, I'm pretty sure they don't hunt pelleted food mixtures out there either. That being said, I can see how the nutrient ratios in these pellets is better for axolotls than strictly beef heart.

For the record, I know that beef heart is not a complete diet for them and I never said that I personally only feed my animals beef heart. My two wild types eat thawed bloodworms and beef heart, and live earthworms, ghost shrimp, and pond snails, in addition to the plants they (accidentally?) eat when they're trying to scoop a snail off the leaves. When the ground isn't covered with snow, I'll also collect slugs, worms, and land snails for them, which they love.

However, if I run out of their other food, and all I have left is beef heart, that's what they're getting. They don't even like it that much. I have to offer it to them when they're really hungry, otherwise they won't even eat it. If I'm giving them beef heart and bloodworms in the same feeding, I have to give them the beef heart first, otherwise they'll be like, "nah, thanks dad I just had some bloodworms. Got any more bloodworms? I love bloodworms."

And fecal analysis following days when they just eat beef heart shows that they don't process it completely; the feces looks more pink and chunky than brown and smooth like when they're fed worms.

The only reason I fed my axolotls beef heart is because it was recommended in the scholarly book I quoted above, and it's readily available to me. They're still quite healthy little buggers, just reached about 10" each and growing everyday. They've got nice plump bellies and are very active.

I appreciate everyone's input. I may discontinue feeding beef heart in the future.