Why not composting worms?

[morg]

I have noticed on a few care sheets for various salamanders,that composting worms eg tiger worms[eiseia fetida] are unsuatable foods.
Could somebody let me know if this is because they are not often eaten or is it a nutritional reason?
Thanx
MORG

 

[john]

Dendrobaena and Eisenia are two genera of worms that are often confused. They're commonly known as compost worms, red wrigglers and red worms. Most salamanders and newts won't eat them because they're distasteful - they produce a strange smelling creamy-white or yellow substance which salamanders and newts don't like. Some people say that this substance is toxic, but I don't believe this is the case, at least for some of the worms, because my Tylototriton verrucosus have been eating them them without problems for 6 or 7 months and they breed quite regularly. Some species may be more distasteful than others, and it may also have something to do with the compost the worms have been in. Some people advise chopping the worms and washing them to rid them of this distasteful substance and that sometimes makes them palatable.

 

[morg]

I needed to know, as both my fire salamanders, and my sharp ribs, eat these worms on a regular basis, due to me having hundreds of them in my compost bin.
I used to breed the tiger worms to give away to organic gardeners to help with the comoposting process, and was going to do it again to feed my sals.
It is easy and you get a regular supply of worms.
I obviously didnt want to do this if it would harm the sals in any way.
Thanx for the help again.
MORG
ps my alpines will eat nothing but live bloodworm
I've tried other things but they arent interestad at all.

 

[john]

Well, there are a few different species, and I'm sure some are more unpalatable than others. It would be interesting to get some sold information on this from somewhere.

 

[morg]

The worms in my compost that I used to breed, and have put into the compost myself are eisenia fetida, and lumbricus rubellus.
I am going to spend some time searching the internet to see if I can find anything out.
Untill I can find out anymore, I will not feed my sals+ newts on them just in case they can do any harm.
If you find any imformation, could you please let me know.
It looks like more slugs and normal earthworms instead, along with the shop bought foods[crickets+ waxworms].
MORG

 

[morg]

WHAT I HAVE MANAGED TO FIND OUT.

I have spent a good while today searching the relevant sites + looking in books etc to see if I could find more about the worm situation.
One worm breeder got back to me to tell me that he sells large amounts of redworms to anglers, but the main bulk buyers of tiger worms are
FISH BREEDERS
POULTRY BREEDERS
AND A ZOO.
These are obviously sold to be used as food,so it looks like the worms dont do any harm to whatever eats them,and it is just that the taste is not to everythings liking.
Thats about it
BE HAPPY
MORG

 

[john]

Lumbricus should be ok. It's Eisenia and Dendrobaena which produce the irritant.

John

 

[morg]

Latest on the eisenia worms.
As my sals+ newts were eating the eisenia worms that I already had,I decided to buy some more to breed up. I gave a few of these to firstly my fire salamanders,one wouldnt try them, the other picked one up then dropped it.
I then tried the sharp ribbed newts.
One ate one, the other wasnt interested.
I thought this was strange as the worms I had bought were the same type as they had all eaten before.
I tried them on some of the eisenia worms that I had in my compost bin, and they all ate them,no trouble.
So it looks like it is possible that it isnt all eisenia worms that are unpalatable, but it depends what the worms are fed on.
The ones I have in my compast I brought up myself from eggs and have only eaten, firstly wheat flour etc, then vegetable waste.
MORG

 

[john]

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier. Commercial worms are cultured on horse manure and I think that's part of the problem.

 

[Jennewt]

Thanks for the info!

I am also planning an experiment along the same lines. I have ordered samples of two kinds of compost worms: E. hortensis (European nightcrawlers) from one worm farm, and a mixture of E. fetida and E. andrei from another farm. I will feed them on grain for a week or two and test whether the newts eat them. I plan to set up a worm bin using whichever one wins the "taste test". I will post the results.

 

[john]

Hehe, "European nightcrawlers"? My my, aren't the owners of that farm imaginative? The only thing that I would call a nightcrawler here in Europe is Lumbricus terrestris...

 

[Jennewt]

Its name is even sillier than you think. Here's a quote from wormman.com:

"The European Night Crawler, also known as the Belgian Worm, Super Red, Carolina Crawlers, Blue Worms, and a half a dozen other names. The Scientific name is Eisenia hortensis.

The European night crawler is a relatively new worm to the United States. A worm expert who was doing some work for the Azerbaijan government in vermiculture discovered this worm in Azerbaijan. He brought the worm back to the US, and the rest is history, but a history that is yet to be written. This is the greatest worm I have ever seen, and I believe this worm will one-day dwarf all others in use, and sales."

 

[morg]

Heres the latest feedback I have got from a worm breeder in the uk.
His company breeds worms for composting, as well as dendrobaena to sell for food for reptiles amphibians etc.
The dendroabaena are fed on grain products etc, no manure.
Anyway this is what he told me.
Only Eisenia foetida produce the smelly liqiud for self preservation,although this liquid is bad tasting and smelly it is not toxic.
He also said that worms can sometimes carry bugs in the gut, so it is best to let them go without food for a few days so the gut is empty before feeding to the newts or sals.
Thats it,

Hope this is of some help to newt+ sal owners.
MORG

 

[morg]

Nearly forgot
Jennewt,I told the uk breeder about the e-hortensis you mention in your post and he says that they are dendrobaena, the ones he sells for animal + fish food.
Morg

 

[john]

That's quite interesting - thanks for posting. I think he's wrong about the species that produce the irritant, but Eisenia foetida is the famous one alright. Does he have any more info regarding these "bugs"? Are they parasites? If so, what kind? I ask because I feed my Tylototriton verrucosus on these red-ringed worms bought from live food dealers, but I don't want to introduce any parasites.

 

[morg]

Just got an answer from the worm breeder on the bugs,heres what he says.

The bugs that I refered too are bacterial, not parasitic,although the risk of parasites would exist in wild caught worms.
The feeding systems and livestock that we use would not have this type of problem.
To be absolutely sure when using worms as food, it would be a good idea to use worms that have been feeding for a few days on something like paper or cardboard, or who have not been feeding for a few days....

I have now sent to this company for 250 of the worms that they sell as food, and will let you know if they are eaten by my sals+ newts when they arrive.
MORG

 

[john]

That's great. You're in the UK right? Do you have the contact information for these people because I wouldn't mind ordering a few myself. I'm in Bristol.

 

[morg]

For some reason I cant get onto the web site direct, it may just be my pc,but If you go through the UK PLUS search engine and put in worms, you can get to the site its at wormsdirect.co.uk.
The address and phone number is
WORMS DIRECT UK
DRYLANDS
ULTING MALDON
ESSEX
CM9 6QS
PHONE NUMBER 01245-381933

 

[neil]

Have you guys tried your local fishing tackle dealers. They often have supplies of worms, but check out they are red-worms and not brandlings as these are the ones which produces the evil smelling yellow fluid.

 

[john]

I've tried that, but the shop doesn't carry earthworms. I may try further afield though.