Almost dead urgent help needed

[layna]

So I've been out 10 hours and have come home to almost all my baby axies dead! They have gone pale and have very whte giils but 10 hours ago they were fine! How can I save them?

 

[Minniechild]

First things first, WATER CHANGE.

 

[Minniechild]

Second things, what is the room they're in like? Very hot? Very cold? Jumps up and down all day long? Very light?
After changing their water, your next priority needs to be ensuring that their environment is as stable as possible- the room needs to not be heated or cooled unless the tech's on 24/7. Next, you need to ensure that the water that you're using for changes (Which need to be happening AT LEAST every 24 hours, if not more often) is the same temperature as the old water. I do this by floating the babies' boxes on top of the adult tank and drawing my water from there.
Next, diet- Are you feeding bbs? If so, good food choice, but remember you only have a few hours after feeding before they start dying off and causing ammonia spikes, which affect babies much more severely than adults or juvies, so a water change is essential within that window (If you have fish housed separately, they will more than happily eat any leftover wigglers) . If you can get your hands on live daphnia or blackworms, they are a good food if you can't be around to do a water change after dinnertime.
Next, have a read through this: Caudata Culture Articles - Why Larvae Die whilst in this case it looks like something environmental has gone wrong, it may help you isolate any other contributing factors (For instance, was it the mother's first batch of eggs? Are the parents in good health?) so the situation can be avoided.
Keep us updated- we're thinking of you!

 

[layna]

Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Forum - layna's Album: Eggs! - Picture


Heres a pic if its any help

They live in my bedroom where the radiators on a few hours during the day and I clean then out everday with tap water that has dechlorinator and amonia remover in it.

They are feeding on adult brineshrimp but I watch over them and dont leave any remains in
I just dont understand it, they are around 2 months old and I thought id already lost the ones I was going too, now in the space of 10 hours they have all gotten ill, some are upside down and they have all gone.a solid white colour with very bright white gills, I though they were all dead but some are alive...barely

 

[Minniechild]

To ask a few more questions...How has their growth rate been? What changed in the past week in their environment?
Can you live without the radiator? As that could be upsetting the temperature balance and causing the distress... Also, you should only need dechlorinator- the ammonia knocker-outer may be causing more problems than it is solving. One thing that may help is leaving the water to sit for 24 hours after you've dechlorinated it next to the babies so you can be certain it's worked.
How are you getting the babies out of their containers?

As to food, could you feed the babies on live baby brine shrimp or daphnia or live blackworms? It may be that they are a bit big for them, or if it's a frozen form of shrimp, that could be the problem (brine shrimp can be a real pain in terms of getting a high quality product...).

In terms of the babies themselves, (to clarify) are they a first lay? Do you know the owner of the parents/own the parents and thus their health/geneological history? My babies' winter brothers and sisters didn't have any survivors past 2 months (of the ones I kept), and they were a first lay.
Hope this helps (And fingers crossed someone else may chime in with some additional suggestions

 

[Kerry M]

I could chime in but you are giving great advice. I agree about the water change and avoiding the ammonia blocker. And I agree that BBS would be better however that would take a while to hatch, however I would start that up after the water change.
Do you scrub out your containers out? When I raised my bubs I scrubbed their containers every second day with a mix of bicarbonate (2 parts) and non iodised salt (1 part) to kill any nasties as that was what I was advised. A water change every day with plain water ager worked wonders, none of the little guys died. So I suppose if it was me I'd scrub, rinse and refill. Good luck, you must be have a very hard time there. I hope things improve, let us know if things are looking better.

 

[layna]

Thanks for your help guys, this is why I don't understand; I do use live food, they are able to eat the brine shrimp easy, even the little ones eat 3 each, they were just starting to get their back legs but as with all batches there were some slow growers.
Ihave a large tub of water that ileave for 24 hours, but top up after each daily use for their water changes,
and they are 2 months old so its strange they all suddenly died of the same thing.
Ididnt think too much of it at the time, but I offered them some bloodworm (frozen) yesterday and I noticed their bodies were a little sticky.

Do you think a salt bath may help?

I have them in two seperate tubs with dividers in and they have all been effected by this thing

 

[layna]

On closer inspection i have 4 survivors!!!!!!


But they are in very bad shape, their gills are now forward and they still have the white stuff all over, i know there only larvae but im going to try the salt bath

 

[Kerry M]

Not sure about the salt bath. When I had sick ones with forward turned gills the water change alone helped. I woke up and they were all OK. Good luck.

 

[layna]

ive done the salt bath and the one who was very white has returned to a more normal colour.

does anyone know about 'Columnaris'? could it be that?

i have three survivors now, unfortunately one didnt live long enough for the salt bath, all the dead ones have open mouths and are covered in white, when, they were see-through when healthy, i dont understand how it has happened in two separate containers in the space of 10 hours :O

Two seem to be a normal colour of the survivors, and i noticed that the part of the tub they were in (two tubs, two separators so there is three compartments) the water from the other two compartments didnt seem to get into their bit and i had to fill it and empty it seperatly on a daily water change, do you think this is why they look so healthy?

Im soaking their conatiners in vinegar and i have scrubbed it with salt incase its something in their tank and then ill put them back in there and continue with the salt baths

thanks for your help guys, im just reallly confused as i do everything your supposed to do and they were 9 weeks old, not newly hatched

 

[Minniechild]

From the sound of it, the bloodworm may have been the culprit Sometimes frozen foods can be Not Good Quality, and whilst an adult/full juvie may be able to cope, it's more likely to hit out the babies.
But yes, you are definitely doing everything you should be doing- Icky food has hit many of us (I still remember poor Freddie puking up the frozen brine shrimp...)The goal now is to keep the survivors alive and get them back up to optimal health as quickly as possible. The bbs are a bit more nutritious, so maybe add some of them in with the adult shrimp to give them a bit of an extra kick.
Update soon! (I need to go to bed before my furry siblings kill me (Or try to lick me into submission...))

 

[layna]

This is the thing, there was only 1 or 2 that actually ate the bloodworm, the others all had round tummies and didnt want it

This is why im so upset, because if i HAD done something different or used something different then i could pin point the problem and say "yes it was that" and hopefully prevent the last two from dying, but im literally at a loss as to what it could be.

Could it be some sort of fungal or bacterial infection? that columnaris thing i mentioned?

Its obviously hit the majority of them cause they share the same water so my conclusion is that it something to do with that..i just dont know what

Im just at a loss really, i feel gutted that ive tried so hard to raise them properly and now 6 of them have died.

 

[Kaysie]

What's the source of your water? Have you tested the hardness?

 

[Minniechild]

It could be... If it is a water-borne disease/pathogen, it wouldn't matter if they'd eaten the infected product or not. Googling the possible treatments, keeping up with the salt baths may assist in restricting its progression IF it is this.
Kaysie- would you agree with cooling the larvae's environment to below the 15C mark in this case?I'm thinking it may be an idea to try and slowly get the temperature down a bit further to get their immune systems working as hard as possible, but my own experience in larval illness has been genetic, not pathological.
As Kaysie said, where's your water coming from, and can you post up an analysis? There could be a source of contamination somewhere along the water chain, and additionally, Wiki seems to suggest (Further verification required) that hard water (over 50ppm) could contribute to further transmission of pathogens among aquatic creatures.
Hopefully, we'll find an answer!

 

[layna]

The water is just tap water with dechlorinator added (left to stand for 24 hours), i was using amonia remover too untill it was suggested not to.

Is it a good idea to salt bath ones without their back legs yet?

They seem okay the two survivors, not white or anyhting at the moment so hopefully, they werent affected, but im going to try my hardest to get them through whatever it may be.

On advice i was given im going to use tank water from my bigger axies tank in the larvaes tank for a while untill they get bigger.

Ive turned my radiator off im my bedroom to try and keep the water temperature cooler and im going to be keeping an extra eye out for any changes in their appearence (ive got the magnifying glass out hehe) :wacko:

I did notice that one of the ones that died yesterday morining, when i gave him the salt bath he seemed to return to a more normal colour, but he too unfortunatly passed.

I havent brought myself to dispose of the dead ones yet either as i feel guilty just flushing them away but it needs to be done. (the living are in a completely seperate container.

 

[Minniechild]

I can understand how much it sucks...Perhaps lay the lost to rest underneath a plant? That way at least their mortal remains will contribute to the environment.
Salt bathing eggs and juvies has been done in the past (There are a few references to it over on Caudata culture), so in that respect there is grounds to suggest it could be beneficial. The question is, as the person who is taking care of the survivors, are you worried enough to do it?
As to everything else you're doing, it sounds like you're on the right track, so hopefully the two little fighters will pull through

 

[layna]

Thank you everyone for your help :happy:

ill keep you updated on the two survivors

 

[Kaysie]

Using water from the adult tank is a good idea. I have done that in the past with my juvies, as you already know it's not contaminated with anything.

My thought is that your water hardness is low. This can cause anemia and paleness. The fact that one returned to normal color in a salt bath adds reinforcement to that.

Good luck!

 

[layna]

Thanks kaysie I'll look into water hardness now :happy:

 

[layna]

Oh no!! Its happened again!

One of the two survivors has gone all white and is dying! Its been 5 days since the last ones died and this time ive only used the older lotls tank water and only fed live daphnia!

i dont know what it is..its soo frustrating as i want to stop it happening