Bloat in shanjing

G

gord

Guest
Hello all:

At the risk of seeming like a worry wort..and becoming a serial poster..I have a request.


Does anyone know if Shanjing can get bloat? My fat healthy shanjing suddenly looks "bloaty" to me. I 've had both a Cynops and ribbed newt get (fatal) bloat in the last few years...so I've seen it. However,this shanjing has always been on the fat side.It's a female and may be just really gravid. But it's getting that scary round bloat look and seems to be having some trouble getting around. Am I just paranoid? I have a female verucossus that looks like this and is as active as all get out. The affected shanjing is eating well and is otherwise alert. I feed my shanjing dew worms and have read that some worms can make newts sick.

Perhaps I should set up my long delayed shanjing breeding tank and see what happens (although the male is still not acting normal).

Any and all input welcome.

Merry Christmas.

Gord
 
Bloat affects the limbs as well as the trunc, most other water retention issues only affects a local area. For example intestinal blockage produces swelling of the abdomen, inflammation causes swelling of the area of infection or injury etc. The major difference being a central involvment in bloat leading to general water retention(oedema).

Bloat is just a symptom of the body not being able to rid itself of excess water primarily due to kidney failure. Kidney failure is often a result of septicemia. Septicemia is caused by bacteria(in general) from an ulcer(or any other bacterial infection) getting into the bloodstream and overwhelming the immunological system when it gets access to the nutritious blood. Bacteria excrete poisons that causes kidney failure and lethargy etc. Ulcers is often caused by stress leading to a depressed immunological defence that is susceptible to the continuously ongoing attacks by opportunistic bacteria.

A newt with septicemia and kidney failure will not eat.

(Message edited by Jesper on December 26, 2005)
 
Hi Jesper,

According to the pathologist at work based on the histology slides, with respect to amphibians, spontaneous fluid retention may be more frequently associated with liver damage as opposed to kidney damage. This is why, with supportive treatment (such as amphibian ringer's), the bloat can be resolved in some animals (liver tissues can regrow unlike kidney tissue). While infections (bacterial, viral, fungal and protozoal) can cause disruption (via various mechanisims such as cellular death, disruption of the skin or lymphatic system not just due to endo or exotoxins) of the osmotic potential of the amphibian, there are other causes such as dehydration during shipping (which can cause kidney damage) (seen in a number of imported species such as C. orientalis), starvation (also seen in imported species).

Some comments

Ed

(Good to see your back to being here on a regular basis)
 
Gord, do you have a picture of the animal? Do the limbs and especially the throat look "bloaty" as well?
 
Hi Ed,
Ah, always a pleasure to be admonished by you...
smile6.gif
.

I never said that this is the only pathway to bloat, neither that bacteria only induce damage through toxins(although this is the most usual way they damage living tissue).

Do excuse me for saying that kidney damage is the primary cause, it must be one of the major causes though. I thought that ALF was far inferior to ARF(acute renal failure) as cause. Would be interesting to hear some more about that.

Acute liver failure(ALF) is certainly another possible route to generalized oedema(bloat) through peripheral vasodilation. Ascites(abdominal oedema) is a prominent feature already at cirrhosis and minor damage to the liver.
 
Hi Jesper,

It wasn't meant as a admonishment... but to build and clarify on what you posted (as one implication of your original post was that bacteria was the primary cause of bloat and or kidney damage....)
I was a little worried that you would take it that way, but it is hard to type up comments without them coming out that way (and I addressed to you as I was adding to your post). So it was meant to be a "factual" discussion, not a admonishment.. I do apologize as you took it that way..

I do agree that kidney damage may be one of the frequent causes (but the question of what frequency is not known at this time) of "bloat".

The endo and exo toxin was not meant for you as I am sure you understand the topic but for other readers of the post (as I mentioned above)

As for ALF vs ARF and fluid retention, all I can say is what the previous pathologist was willing to share with me about the topic and this did cover a variety of amphibians from wc to cb of different age classes which died from a variety of causes.

I don't know if his observations ever were published but it would be nice to see this documented somewhere.

Ed
 
Ralf:

Thanks for posting the pics! Much appreciated on a boxing day.

Yes.I have read Ed's piece on bloat as well as the one by Ellen Chernoff on treating newt disease with salt.

I've decided to quarantine both newts (the small one has been acting sick for a week) and will be treating them both with the salt dip recommended by Ellen in her piece...for starters.


Each newt has its own dip tub and quarantine tub. Luckily I have a lot of room in the basement and an understanding wife (who loves the shanjing!). I'm giving both a 15 minute dip tonight, and will see where we are in the am. Plus I want feedback from the experts out there.

Questions: Should I use damp paper towel in the quarantine tubs or leave it dry? I know shanjing are not nuts about being wet, but need to be moist.

I'm ripping down the tank the shanjing were in. And will disinfect it.What should I use? I'll pitch all the gravel sand and plants.

I noticed the big girl did a poop. Anything I should watch for?

Thanks for your help folks.It is very much appreciated.

I'm gonna do what I can to save these newts.

Gord
 
Given how distended the skin looks on the newt, shining a strong light source (like a good flashlight) vertically and then horizontally to see if any egg masses can be seen in the newt. If you see a lot of "clear" spaces in the abdominal area then I would suspect that the newt has something causing the fluid retention.

The problem with the salt dip is that it may be too short term to help remove excess fluid while amphibian ringers will help the newt balance its osmotic potential (in the case of isotonic) and remove water if hypertonic is used.

I would place it on unbleached paper towels that are only barely damp.
I would also get fecal checks run on the newts.

If you are tossing all of the organic debris, then I would scrub the cage and use a bleach solution that is allowed to remain in the tank for at least 15 minutes.

My two cents,

Ed
 
Ah, but you misinterpret me Ed.

I wouldn't call this bloat. As Ed says, it is probably either eggs or a localized oedema.
What is causing the oedema is difficult to say.
The newt has no ulcers, it is eating well and alert right? Then it seems to be eggs.

Other possible causes are intestinal blockage or some kind of infection. However an infection causing these symptoms would most likely cause other more severe symptoms, ie drowsiness, refusal of food, lethargy.

My first question would be if it passes stools. Check for that to begin with. In my experience newts that look like this does not, except if they are gravid.

Can it move without any hindrance?
 
Observe that gravidity often causes secondary problems as the swelling of the abdomen puts pressure on nearby systems such as the gastro-intestinal tract.
 
Jesper, Ed, and Ralf:

Thank you all for your input.

Upate Dec 2: checked the quarantined newts this morning.The big girl was out of her cave

and alert.She does not like being in the tub. She looked less bloaty and had pooped. I take

both of those things as good signs. The smaller shanjing was in the cave. It was reasonably

alert, but looked a little more round then it should be. No poop. This newt has not been

eating well for a couple weeks and has been my main concern until recently. It acts more

"sick" to me.

I put both newts back in the salt dip for about 20 minutes. The little one just soaked in

it, not looking very happy or alert. The big girl wanted out and was climbing the

side.They are now back in the quarantine tubs. The paper towel is damp.I've wetted it with

the salt solution water as described by Ellen. The basement room they are in is cool about

60- 65 F, and dark.

Ed: I've been doing the salt dip because I don't have the other elements for ringers. I

will look today at our local pet store for them. We have no vets here (that I know of) who

are experienced with amphibians. Horses,cats and dogs, yes. You guys are the best source of

info I'm going to get for newt health! I've ripped apart the tank and disinfected it with a

bleach solution as you suggested. I must say the tank gravel did not smell that good when I

dug into it. Perhaps a source of the problem? If these guys make it they will be rewarded

with a nice new home in a large tank.

Jesper: Thanks for your response. Neither newt has an ulcer or wound and never did. The

smaller one was very skinny when I got it but was nursed back to health. But as my son

pointed out this morning (the newts are a family affair) the small one never was very

aggressive or active compared to the larger one. As I have noted, the bigger newt (and

original focus of the bloat concern) has pooped twice in quarantine. No poop from the small

one, but it's not been eating well. It did, however,show mild interest in a worm yesterday

just before I pulled them out of their tank.

Questions: Should I try to feed these newts while they are in quarantine?

Lights out all the time or should I have a light on in the day? they both have caves.

Any danger in extending the salt soak time?

Cheers,

Gord
 
Ringers solution should be available in hospital pharmacies. I never keep lights on in my newt tanks to the great disgust of my plants.

Personally I do not like to put newts in hypertonic solutions, it is a quite brutal method of symptomatic treatment that does not affect the underlying problem.

Btw has anyone tried a diuretic on a newt?

Maybe both have been/are suffering from intestinal problems, if the bigger one has pooped twice and looks slimmer that seems like a reasonable explanation. How often do they feed?
 
When I went to feed my shanjing today, one of them looked just like the one you showed in the picture. I too worried about bloat. However, she is active and ate a whole worm so I am not going to worry too much. The torso is fat/rounded but the skin isn't tense and she can walk well. I am hoping she's gravid.. but guessing she's just one good worm catcher! She loves hiding underneath the moss and that's where most of the worms like to be as well.
 
Ringer's solution for people is not the same as the ringer's solution for amphibians. I would have to look at it to tell you the exact differences but I think the concentrations of the different solutes are different...

Keeping it on the moistened towels is actually probably the best for this species as opposed to placing it in a bath. If the substrate is hypertonic then it will help the newt shed extra
fluids (did you try the flashlight method to try and confirm if the newts have ovulated??)

A pet store will not have the supplies needed for making amphibian ringers. A bio supply company is probably a better source and some of the ingredients may be available from a local pharmacist.

If it didn't smell good then it was probably due to anaerobic baterial growth.

If your vet is willing to work with you to treat the newts, then that is actually a way better option than attempting to get diagnosis over the net. For example, he could aspirate some fluid from the abdomen and check it for bacteria.


I'm not sure why a hypertonic bath treatment is automatically a brutal treatment unless the hypertonicity is extreme enough that the amphibian cannot maintain its osmotic balance at all and is rapidly dehydrating. Having used hypertonic ringers solutions to reduce fluid rentention before moving the amphibian to a isotonic solution I have not seen any overt indications of stress (Such as continual escape behaviors). I typically will place the caudate on unbleached paper towels moistened with the hypertonic solution (if terrestrial) as opposed to immersing a terrestrial animal into the solution (which in and of itself is stressful).
Some institutions have kept aquatic caudates such as sirens and mudpuppies in aquaria with a salinity content as high as 12% (personal communication with the keepers) as either a preventative or a treatment for fungal issues or to treat other inhabitants in the aquaria or system (in systems with more than one tank)...

Ed
 
Hello all:

Just got home from work. Checked on my guys and then read your replies. This has certainly been a lively thread, and man am I learning stuff.

Anyway, I'm feeling better about the situation. Both newts are doing well, and the one that looked the most bloated yesterday (the pictured newt) is significantly less so this evening. I took her out and she was very active trying to walk and looked good. The other one is still a bit dodgy, but is clear eyed, fairly active and apparently was climbing the wall of the tub this afternoon (my son was checking on them).Needless to say they are screened in.

I'm very glad I put them in quarantine.

Jesper: I asked about Ringers at the pharmacy and they had none (Gal there called it Ringers laktade?) .Sounds like it may not be the right stuff anyway. I think I'll stop the baths and just do the damp towels with the solution for now. See how they look in the am.

Ed: Can I assume anaerobic bacteria are a bad thing? I will do the flashlight trick as soon as I get off the computer. Full report (and possibly pics) in the am.

BTW should I try a feeding?

Both newts ate about 3 times a week, more in the summer. They were enthusiastic eaters until recently. All earthworms I caught. I've been giving them nighcrawler parts lately they are less fussy about them. Or was it they were just unwell and had lost their appetite? As I've said, the big one at 2 days ago..its been over a week for junior. I did get a line on some "fishworms" and have them in soil right now. Worth a try ?

Cheers,

Gord
 
The few cases of bacterial infection (septicemia) with kidney failure (multi-organ failure) I've seen were pachytriton l. and Notopthalmus n.n.. They both had significant swelling that involved their mouth and head. I think I would put my money on being gravid. Good luck. Eating is always a good sign.
Al
 
Gord, what you can probably do is take the description of ringer's solution (from the cc pages) with you to any pharmacy. They should be able to make you a bottle of the stuff. I am going to make a bottle myself at the school chemistry lab. I'm pretty sure they'll have all the ingredients there too.
 
Update Dec.28:

Hello all: Not a lot to report this morning. The two newts are looking ok, no worse or better then yesterday. I think the coolness of the basement room (60-65 F) they are in has slowed down their responses quite a lot. They are pretty sluggish until I pick them up. Both were in their caves. Bloating seems to be under control, if it was actually that. Both remain plump. A bit more poop in the big girls tub. Still none from the smaller one. It hasn't eaten in some time. I tried to look for egg masses in the big one with a bright light but I could not see anything but newt skin.

I decided to put some small pieces of wriggly worm in the cages (before I handled them) but neither showed any interest. I'll leave the pieces in there for a bit, just in case. If they aren't eaten, I'll take them out.Would the solution put them off food? I'm guessing the change in environment has something to do with it. Or maybe they are still sick?

I'm wondering what my next step should be? How long should I keep them in quarantine? I don't want them to waste away. I think I'm going to start setting up their new tank and get the ball rolling. Obviously they won't be going in it for a while. I know they can go for quite a time without food, so I'm not worried about that...yet.

Should I switch to plain water (to see what happens) or keep using the Hypertonic solution on the paper towels for a bit? Any other suggestions?

Cheers,

Gord
 
Hell all:

Here are some pics of my newts taken the evening of dec 27th..I've tried to resize them so they will make the caudata forum cut.

GE

50715.jpg


50716.jpg


50717.jpg


50718.jpg


(Message edited by ralf on December 28, 2005)
 
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