Bloat in shanjing

[ralf]

Hi Gord,
thanks for the update. I edited your post (sequence of pictures) for easier reading.

 

[gord]

Ralf:

Thanks for readjusting the pics.

Re. the four preceding pics:

The first shot is a top view of the big girl that looked so bloated two days ago. She is also seen walking in the last shot of the four. Looking a little better overall I think. The shanjing under the bars is the smaller one, that has been acting sick for about 2 weeks. He seems a bit better but is not exactly a ball of fire. The shot of the tubs is the newt "sick bay". The screened tubs are quarantine, the other ones the "dip" tubs. I've not used the dip tubs for 24 hours.

Just checked the newts this afternoon and all is quiet. Both were hiding in their caves.Took out the worm pieces as the newts didn't eat them.

GE

 

[jesper]

Ed:
What you are actually doing with a hypertonic solution is forcing out big volumes of fluids through the skin. I'm quite sure that this is not how a newt normally controls its osmotic balance otherwise it would have no need for kidneys. I find it a bit disturbing to interfere so dramatically in any body's normal function. On the other hand, maybe newt skin responds well to changes in osmotic environment? How many sal species are actually living in salt water? That should probably give some clue to their affinity to hypertonic solutions

 

[edward]

Hi Jesper,

given that a caudate placed in a severe hypotonic solution loses Ca through the skin as it actively transports water from its tissues is a pretty good indication that the skin is an important part of regulating its osmotic potential. A hypertonic solution will allow the easier transport of the water as it will passively diffuse as well as be actively transported (and in a solution like amphibian ringers allow for the scavenging of Ca to prevent electrolyte imbalance (which is also shown to occur) supporting the function of the kidney.


Ed

 

[jesper]

Hi Ed,
Do you have any data(ie seen) on how big a role the skin of a newt(in general) has on fluid disposal? I would wager it is quite limited.

Especially since the role of the skin must be altered when an amphibian goes from aquatic conditions to terrestrial ones. Wouldn't it be quite disastrous to use the skin as a major fluid disposal organ under such conditions?

I mean it is one thing to say that the skin has a role in electrolyte exchange etc and another to force out a major oedema through that same organ. Seems much more logical to use the kidneys they do have after all.

 

[edward]

Hi Jesper,

Do you have any data indicating it is not??

With respect to the electrolyte exchange (and uptake) this occurs in the presence of water as water is the required trasport solvent thus the skin has an active role in maintaining its osmotic potential however that aside, yes there is data that demonstrates that amphibians can manipulate thier osmotic potential via osmotic gradients(and a hypertonic solution is the ultimate osmotic gradient) as well as postural changes on those gradients.

In any case in cases of bloat, it is obvious that the renal function of the animal is unable for some reason to keep up with and maintain the correct fluid balance in the animal and a hypertonic solution allows for the loss of this excess fluid reducing the stress on the kidneys. If the bloating continues then once the fluid is lost, maintaining the animal in a isotonic solution may resolve the issues allowing for a chance for resolution.

For some discussion on amphibian skin and maintaining water balance I refer you to Amphibian Biology vol I, 1994, the Integument, Surrey Beatty and Sons and Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, 2005, Krieger Press.

Ed

 

[mac]

Just as info...
I became involved with working with bloat and Ringer's a couple of months ago and received very good info from Ed and the articles on this board. I found ScienceLab.com a good online source for buying the chemicals needed for mixing your own. ScienceLab is a bit slow on delivery, btw. I have also found the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book to be a valuable aid.

 

[andrew read]

In my experience an easy way to tell bloat is that the throat swells up. There is no sign of the throat swelling up in these photos. Tylototriton are 'binge' feeders and will eat enormous meals if given half a chance; this is then followed by them secreting large volumes of digestive fluids into their gut to process the food. My newts almost always look like this one after a meal. I think your newt has simply eaten a large meal. It may also be possible that it has a gut upset in the sense that there were bacteria present in the food that did not agree with your newt or that it was not used to.

 

[edward]

There are different degrees of fluid retention in an animal and yes the classic severe cases do visablly involve the throat, but it can be caught before it reaches this stage and hopefully resolved.

Ed

 

[jesper]

Hi Ed,
I asked about data since you often seem to have access to unpublished material, it wasn't meant as an insult...

My point was that it might be worth trying a diuretic instead of exposing it to hypertonic solutions. Basically I still believe that losing that much fluid through the skin must be a bigger strain than losing it through the kidneys even for a newt. But then again I do not know how well a diuretic would work on a newt...

 

[andrew read]

I really don't think that this is a 'bloat' problem in the sense of a septicaemia. I think that at worst it is a gut problem, either bacteriological, or some kind of parasite. However if this problem doesn't go away after normal digestion of whatever is in the gut then I think that you should consider gut parasites as a cause. I think that you could stop feeding for a while to see if the problem goes away completely. Look at the excrement for any obvious parasites. Personally I think it is a good idea to treat prophylactically and blind for parasites, but to be very choosy about which drugs you use. I don't think that there is any fluid retention except in the guts.

 

[edward]

Hi Jesper,

I wasn't taking as an insult.

Andrew,

What do you mean by bacteriological? What is the proposed mechanism for how this could cause bloating??

Also given that there are multiple different parasites that require thier own different medications, are you advocating multiple treatment regimens as a prophylactic means?

Ed

Ed

 

[jesper]

Hehe, I'd just recommend chilling out and see what happens. I certainly do not think this is a bloat cause but rather a local gut problem that will resolve itself without any treatment. The discussion on septicemia and bloat was theoretical.

 

[andrew read]

Hi Ed,
I think that it is a good idea to treat prophylactically against roundworms and flatworms. By bacteriological I mean gastro-enteritis.
Hi Jesper,
I think that you are right to distinguish between localised swelling and generalised oedema of the whole body.

 

[edward]

Hi Andrew,

The problem with the diagnosis of gastroenteritis is that this does not include fluid retention, in fact the problem with this diagnosis is the opposite as one of the main symptoms of gastroenteritis is severe diarrhea which causes severe fluid loss.....

Ed

 

[andrew read]

hello Ed.,
I don't think that all bacterial gut infections result in a simple diarrhoea; the gut is sometimes filled with gas and mucus.

 

[edward]

Hi Andrew,

Do you have any references to support this statement? I cannot find anything in the amphibian medical literature to support this statement. This has been seen in reptiles that have amoeba infections and/or have been fed and then cooled and hibernated but nothing that supports this in amphibians. Even amphibians such as Ambystoma opacum that have been fed and kept at 45 F do not show these problems. I would suspect that it may be possible in some tropical anurans but I doubt it occurs in caudates.

Personally rather than treat an animal for a parasite it may not have given that many drugs for parasites are also toxic to amphibians and have some have been shown to cause varying degrees of toxic sensitivity to the drug after one treatment (such as with Levamisol), I would prefer to monitor the fecals to see if the treatement is warrented first.

 

[andrew read]

I think that a distended stomach and intestine are common symptoms of many bacterial infections including even Aeromonas infections; I have seen it myself many times. I don't think it is uncommon in the literature.

 

[edward]

Andrew,
On what basis did you determine that the animal had an Aeromonus infection in the digestive tract and what were the resulting serotypes? If you have seen it many times then you have to have some form of testing method to isolate the bacteria involved in the production of the gas. How did you isolate out this bacteria from the digestive tract from the rest of the normal fauna and how did you determine that this genera was the one commonly causing problems?

If you believe it is not uncommon in the literature please supply the references to support your position that distention of the digestive system in caudates is due to gas and mucous from Aeromonas infections.

Again, please cite references to back up your position.

Ed

 

[andrew read]

you can find references to bacteria causing gut distention in frogs dating from the 1960's in Reichenbach-Klinke and Elkan. The ones I had identified were Pseudomonads.