Caudata.org: Newts and Salamanders Portal

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Did you know that registered users see fewer ads? Register today!

Differentiation of salamandra subspecies

schmiggle

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Location
Massachusetts
There are 13 subspecies of Salamandra salamandra, and I had thought they were differentiated primarily by pattern, but after seeing similar-looking patterns on different subspecies, I was wondering what the actual differences are. Is it skeletal? Size based? Etc...
 

michael

2010 Research Grant Donor
Joined
Apr 12, 2003
Messages
3,340
Reaction score
115
Location
Ephrata,Pa
I'm guessing that scientifically speaking their is different dna. I'm not a scientist. With many subspecies you can't tell which they are without collection data.
 

FrogEyes

Active member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
908
Reaction score
38
Location
Southern Minnesota
The subspecies [many are now species] were described using morphological data, including coloration, and sometimes reproductive differences. In some cases, geography is very important, as there are similar forms from distinctly distant locations, either due to convergence or to shared ancestry.

Identifying through these details at the very least requires 1) one or more good European field guides, and 2) scientific papers reviewing or describing one or more of the forms [for example, Salamandra salamandra werneri and S.s.beshkovi in the Balkans: http://biozoojournals.ro/nwjz/content/v8n1/nwjz.121102.Vukov.pdf ]. There can still be problems though - many wild-caught animals not only lack place of origin [but will mostly be from Ukraine, due to export bans elsewhere], but need further revisions [the Salamandra infraimmaculata complex may contain additional species and subspecies].

There is an article on this site, but I don't recall how helpful it is, and I don't have many useful references for European taxa. I do have Jean Raffaelli's recent book, but I have not endeavored to read the Salamandra chapters [it is in French, in which I am rusty].

In any case, it's not as simple as counting colors and stripes or spots.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sde

schmiggle

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
88
Reaction score
2
Location
Massachusetts
I had a feeling it might be that complicated...Luckily it's more or less a non-issue for me as far as pets are concerned, I was more curious generally speaking. Perhaps I will get a European guidebook for my next field-herping trip to Europe. :)
 

JM29

Active member
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
402
Reaction score
53
Location
Brittany
. In some cases, geography is very important, as there are similar forms from distinctly distant locations, either due to convergence or to shared ancestry.
.

I fully agree with this point. Subspecies may be difficult to differenciate on uniquely morphological characters. More difficult, different morphs can exist in one given subspecies.
Jean Raffaëlli's 2013 handbook describes 8 species with 27 subspecies, with 13 subspecies for the species Salamandra salamandra alone. Another difficulty is the geographic location, which must be very precise when one deal with spanish subspecies and species.
 

FrogEyes

Active member
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
908
Reaction score
38
Location
Southern Minnesota
Offhand, no. Jean sent me one. I can think of three LIKELY sources; in the UK, try Natural History Book Store [NHBS]. In North America try Zoobook Sales. In Australia, try Herpbooks.com. You can order from any of these from anywhere in the world, but obviously shipping costs will differ. You might also try ordering it from Jean.
 
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • Jokerjay:
    My son and I have been looking for a water dog/tiger salamander for quite some time now with no luck has anybody know how or where to find any
    +1
    Unlike
  • Jokerjay:
    @axolotl nerd, where can I find waterdogs or tiger salamanders my son has wanted one for a long time and I've been searching high and low with no luck
    +1
    Unlike
  • xxianxx:
    @Jokerjay, its a good idea to tell people where you are from. This is an international group. I have eastern tigers, im in the uk.
    +1
    Unlike
  • axolotl nerd:
    @Jokerjay, as in water dogs do you mean axolotls? i suggest very heavy research and a fully cycled tank before even considering purchasing one
    +1
    Unlike
  • bearbear_13:
    Axolotls are amazing until they get sick and then they’re a pain in the backside to treat - I recently lost two axolotls due to unknown causes
    +1
    Unlike
  • KonaGoldAquatics:
    Anyone from the us? Looking for at least one or two axolotls for me and my son to have our own at-home project together.
    +1
    Unlike
  • axolotl nerd:
    i highly recommend “buyanaxolotl.com”- ive purchased from them and received a beautiful animal for relatively cheap, in great condition, and excellent shipping precautions. the breeders are a couple living in georgia (i believe, don’t quite remember) and they’re fantastic. sometimes their website contact page doesn’t work, so i’d probably try just emailing them. good luck and happy hunting!
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    do those aquarium fans work well for axolotls
    +1
    Unlike
  • Sheryl Fraser:
    My little guy got stuck in the filter yesterday. His back leg is red. Will this heal
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    Z-One has left the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • KonaGoldAquatics:
    Any recommendations on a water chiller for a 10gallon but will work for a 20gal when I decide to upgrade?
    +1
    Unlike
  • Tinc Tank:
    Anybody working with and breeding Salamandra salamandra salamandra?
    +2
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    heh
    +1
    Unlike
  • Alexmcc:
    Hi all I'm new here I'm just looking some advise on cycle witch is currently driving me insane . So we are week 8 I'm dosing daily with 4pp of amonia and for the last week has been dropping to zero witch I no is good. But my question is my nitrites are sitting at between 0.50 and 1.0 PM and nitrates are between 10 and 20 and neither of these seem to be dropping. I have done 2 40% water changes a few days ago and no change the only thing I can think of is I didnt use the seachem stability stuff which I have now ordered but surely that shouldn't have much difference this far into cycling
    +1
    Unlike
  • ytz13513:
    Dropping ammonia with rising nitrate and nitrite is good. It means the nitrifying bacteria is working. You just have to remove the nitrate from the water doing water changes. The level of nitrates is high and the nitrate is also high. The nitrite will be converted to nitrate using the beneficial bacteria and you can add them using quick start or allowing them to naturally grow in the tank. The latter option will take longer. The nitrate can be used by plants, so live plants can decrease the levels, but I would do a water change to get the nitrate at a level that is lower than 5 ppm. 5ppm of nitrate is natural and a good place.
    +1
    Unlike
  • EvankingM:
    New here. hope this is the right place to post my question. I had 27 axolotyls aged 2-3 months old. main food has been finely chopped up bloodworms. no problems. I decided to introduce earthworms from my earthworm compost bin for variety. I finely chopped up 4 small earthworms and fed them to the babies. Within an hour 20 of the babies were dead. The remaining 7 (the smaller babies) survived and are now fine on bloodworms. Any ideas why the chopped up earthworms killed many of the babies?
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    Lyv3wyr3 has left the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    oh wow this place got a makeover
    +1
    Unlike
  • John:
    Yeah baby!
    CalculatingEducatedKingfisher-size_restricted.gif
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    John has left the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    John has joined the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • Bellabelloo:
    Looks really good. 😊
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    i agree
    +1
    Unlike
  • BrodieBAxolotls:
    love the new look
    +1
    Unlike
  • noahc808:
    does anyone know if fairy shrimp are good to use with axolotls?
    +1
    Unlike
    noahc808: does anyone know if fairy shrimp are good to use with axolotls? +1
    Top