Kaiseri Poisoning Incident

You really should picture your poisoned wound... There are always divergent opinions.
Having in fact Triturus, Lissotriton, Ichthyosaura along with Neurergus and Omatotriton are known for its low TTX 'content' I wonder how you would react to Salamandra salamandra, L. laoensis, T. verrucosus or T. granulosa poison in same concentration (witch also you did not refer in a primary basis.)
 
You really should picture your poisoned wound... There are always divergent opinions.
Having in fact Triturus, Lissotriton, Ichthyosaura along with Neurergus and Omatotriton are known for its low TTX 'content' I wonder how you would react to Salamandra salamandra, L. laoensis, T. verrucosus or T. granulosa poison in same concentration (witch also you did not refer in a primary basis.)



Frankly, the wound in question was nothing major, but is now pretty disgusting. I really don't feel it would be appropriate to post a picture of it. The resulting swelling caused it to tear a bit more, and as expected, the reduced circulation killed some off tissue around the edges. I had to debride it and treat it with neosporin as I do not want a nasty infection. In other words, it is really gross!

I have never worked with any Salamndra or any of the others you list, save for tarichas. With my one taricha I have never handled him or anything in his tank with anything other than tongs and nets. Given my difficulties with various chemical exposures, I am a bit paranoid of the little guy.
 
The stomach cramps were the worst part. Ever had fold-you-in-half type cramps? Me either, until last night. Thankfully, I do not have any teeth left to break from keeping my mouth shut instead of screaming..:rofl:

awesome. Condolences, but...awesome. When you finally identify the toxin and get to name it, may I suggest a few sample names:

- kaiseri's revenge
- Johnny's come-uppance
- Johnny's Senior Thes.....thump!
 
awesome. Condolences, but...awesome. When you finally identify the toxin and get to name it, may I suggest a few sample names:

- kaiseri's revenge
- Johnny's come-uppance
- Johnny's Senior Thes.....thump!

Have to get me out of the doghouse with the wife first. Thankfully, I can smuggle specimens to school and use the lab there.
 
I am hardly a chemist(floundered along in chemistry and ochem), leaning more to the behavioral side of things if anything but their work fascinates me. Good luck isolating what is in these newts! If I am correct their is no antidote for TTX?

The mention of Pleurodeles is interesting...any more anecdotes? It is odd as they seem to be quite well defended(along with their rib glands they will headbutt with paratoid glands and tail slap)...yet they are commonly eaten by Natrix maura and possess no warning coloration.
 
The orange spots could be considered warning coloration, plus they do have the unken position.
Both Natrix maura and Natrix natrix will predate on any caudate they encounter througout their distribution. They are inmune to even large fire salamanders. They are the eurasian Thamnophis :D

I heard anecdotal hearsay of fire salamander poisoning in an herpetological congress. If it´s true, the person was supossed to have touched his mouth after manipulating an angry salamander and it caused complete numbness in the entire bucal area for 1-2 days.
 
They are inmune to even large fire salamanders.
First time i hear such thing. On one documental movie it was even shown that a Natrix turned back when spotted a fire sal.
 
There are plenty of documented instances of both N.natrix and N.maura eating S.salamandra (adults, juveniles and larvae), Triturus, Lissotriton, Ichthyosaura, Pleurodeles....I´ve seen a fair few fully documented articles in the spanish herpetological magazine.
As for inmunity, i may have overstated the reality of it, but they certainly are highly resistant, which basically is the same thing in the end :p

They are also resistant to bufonid toxins.
 
Amphibiaweb also lists herons as predators of Pleurodeles waltl. It seems rib spines would be particularly effective against a snake since they are in such intimate contact with their prey for longer periods. Being stabbed by the rib spines would be unavoidable.

BTW, when I saw the title to the thread it scared me as I thought you may have had contaminated food/water and lost some kaiseri. I was somewhat relieved to hear it was the other way around!

Seems the US population of kaiseri is doing rather well if their are enough to be used as test subjects.

What would be interesting to find out is if Thamnophis can eat European newts, or if Natrix will succumb to Taricha.
 
I don't think Natrix would survive eating a Taricha. They're much more toxic than any European amphibian.
 
I agree with Yahilles.
Natrix should die after consuming Taricha and Thamnophis could get sick with European newts but maybe would survive due to toxicity on Triturus, Lissotriton and other newt species in europe being maybe a tousand times more weaker than those of Taricha. TTX is as far as I know the primary compound. But, as far as I know, it gets different concentrations among newt species, being Taricha one of the most filled with this venom.
European Salamandra are very very toxic I doubt a tiny skinny Natrix would come closer to an adult Salamandra with 2 times its mass and 2 or 3 times more thicker, filled on TTX on much greater concentrations than those of European newt genera.
 
. I do not know of a single case of kaiseri poisoning other than my own.

You are reminding me of my former co-worker at the Minnesota Department of Natural resources, Howard Krosch, who discovered the venomous nature of the short-tailed shrew by being bit:

Krosch, H. F. 1973. Some effects of the bite of the short-tailed shrew, Blarina brevicauda. J. Minnesota Acad. Sci., 39:21.

We would miss you - Stay with us!

-Steve Morse
 
An informative and entertaining story Johnny, glad you're still with us.

A couple of general comments:

There's a lot of discussion here about tetrodotoxin. The symptoms described are not typical of TTX, but rather of other poisons. People poisoned by TTX tend to lay on the floor, staring at the ceiling unable to breathe...until they die. Alkaloids tend to interfere with nerve function, causing loss of feeling or control of various functions. Peptides may interfere with digestion or other functions. For symptoms as strong as described, TTX would have been fatal [again, not the same symptoms though].

Toxins, being chemical compounds, have a system of naming. They are typically named after the organism they are discovered in:
Samandarine - Salamandra
Epibatidine - Epipedobates
Histrionicotoxin - Oophaga histrionica
Pumiliotoxin - Oophaga pumilio
Batrachotoxin - Phyllobates [an amphibian, or 'batrachos' in Greek]
Bufotoxin, Bufotenine, Bufodienoline - Bufonidae
Tarichatoxin [TTX] - Taricha
Zetekitoxin [TTX] - Atelopus zeteki
Tetrodotoxin [TTX] - Tetraodon fugu
Botulinotoxin - Clostridium botulinum
Strychnine - Strychnos
Tetanospasmin, Tetanolysin - Clostridium tetani

Often, these toxins are found in other organisms later, so the name doesn't mean they're restricted to the species they were found in.

Suitable names in this case might include one or more of :
Neurergine, Neurergotoxin, Kaiserine, and Kaisertoxin.

Just plain noxious compounds, in the tradition of spermine, cadaverine, and putrescine, might be called "diarhaeine" or "vomitine" :p

Some of the earliest additions to my library of scientific papers were sent to me by John Myers, John Daly, and colleagues, back when I was grinding up Mantella skins.
 
Sounds like a peptide/ alkaloid mix eh? Going to start back up with analyisis here in a few days.

Ever heard of a loss of hot/cold detection in the affected region? I have two fingers that can sense neither.
 
Specifically? No, but that could be associated with cell damage caused by cytolysins, or nerves blocked by alkaloids or other substances. Could be a temporary blockage waiting on chemical breakdown, or tissue damage that may or may not heal. That's outside of my knowledge and expertise. I'd root for the former!
 
There's a great Victorian account of self-administered crested newt poison in "Observations on the Cutaneous Exudation of the Triton cristatus, or Great Water-Newt" by Eleanor Ormerod:

"For the sake of exactly ascertaining the sensations [...] a part of the back and tail of a live Triton were gently pressed between the teeth sufficiently to alarm the animal and cause it to give out its acrid cutaneous exudation. The first effect was a bitter astringent feel in the mouth, with irritation of the upper part of the throat, numbing of the teeth more immediately holding the reptile, and in about a minute from the first touch of the Newt a strong flow of clear saliva. This was accompanied by much foam and violent spasmodic action, approaching convulsions, but entirely confined to the mouth itself.

The experiment was immediately followed by headache lasting for some hours, general discomfort of the system, and half an hour after by slight shivering fits. It was not intended that any of the poison should be swallowed, but such may have been the case to a slight degree; and none of the remedies (similarly intended merely to be held in the mouth), such as dilute ammonia, had any effect in removing the discomfort, till, about an hour after the experiment, swallowing a few spoonfuls of cream at once allayed much of the local irritation and with it the general discomfort of the system."

I've put the full paper up at:
Observations on the Cutaneous Exudation of the Triton cristatus, or Great Water-Newt. By Miss Eleanor A. Ormerod.
 
Just a small update. I have successfully (finally) analyzed some samples here. I now know less than I did before.

No TTX in any form. (Good call folks)

Definitely some interesting peptides, but this sort of thing is still a bit beyond me.

Also an interesting strain of bacteria residing in the epidermis. Notice I state in and not on... I have turned this culture over to an Immunologist and a Microbiologist to work with. Odd part about whatever they are is they culture best at 21.5C.
Still learning how to isolate and identify any alkaloids, bear with me there as I'm really new to this molecular biology stuff.
Sadly, I had an adult male die on me, however, the tissue samples collected as a result have been a gold mine of data. Also did a full necropsy and found that surprisingly they look exactly like triturus innards. He is on ice for the time being as we have some experiments planned over the next few months.

Anyone have any experience tube-culturing live caudate cells, other than axolotl regeneration experiments? All I can find is on axolotls and we suspect that not all the protocols will work for us.

Sorry to go resurrection on an old thread, but I felt this was better than starting a new thread and having to reexplain everything.

Also note the nerve damage to my fingers has thus far proven permanent, however the wound in question has long since healed as left absolutely no trace or scarring. Which I find odd as a wound that size on my hand should have scarred up like crazy.

So much research to do and so little time.
 
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