Neurergus kaiseri CITES Appendix I soon?

[John]

I'm sorry, Jay, I must be stupid today or something but it looks like you are literally talking about "laundering" amphibians. It doesn't work like that. The only country of origin for this species is Iran. Captive bred offspring receive CITES papers based on their parents, and so on. I don't see how anyone is going to have real CITES papers for these.

 

[Tim Robin]

Captive bred offspring receive CITES papers based on their parents, and so on. I don't see how anyone is going to have real CITES papers for these.

CITES paperwork is only necessary when importing or exporting. CITES paperwork is not given to every CB or wild caught animal in captivity. Again, only if the animal is to be imported or exported is CITES paperwork required.

 

[Tim Robin]

Show me 1 example of a foreign CITES appendix 1 species that in the U.S. you do not need this usfw permit for. So my point is that you cannot move an Appendix I animal from one state to another without proper permits.Also we are talking about wildcaught animals that were legally imported to the U.S. at the time of import. In order to get the appropriate usfw permit for these you would have to first get paperwork for the animals from CITES. The 2 go hand in hand.The cbw doesn't apply to non captive bred animals...ie. adult wild caught Neururgus kaiseri.

I am new to the world of Caudates, but am intimately familiar with tortoises. A perfect example of this is the Pyxis species. They are native to Madagascar and are listed on CITES appendix I. There is no regulation on interstate sales of them. Now, many of the WC adults in the states now, obviously were imported prior to them being added to Appendix I, just as the WC Neururgus kaiseri adults that now reside in the US. They can be sold from state to state with no permit.
As for the CBW permit, it absolutely applies to WC adults as well as captive-bred animals. I currently hold a CBW permit for Radiated tortoises. If I find an individual that has a WC adult and has a CBW permit, I can purchase that adult and have it transported to my state. I also can purchase CB animals as well.

My point was simply to state that if Neururgus kaiseri make it to Appendix I, it really will not affect current hobbyists breeding them. It will simply make it nearly impossible to import or export any.

 

[John]

Once they are listed as cites then their offspring get permits too.I know a lot about cites and the way it works.

How can animals have CITES papers if even before CITES listed them they were never exported legally?

 

[craig]

How can it be known for sure that there has only been one legal export of kaiseri from Iran? The Iranian government is not exactly known for it's transparency or truthfulness. The recent presidential election in the country is proof of this.

 

[John]

How can it be known for sure that there has only been one legal export of kaiseri from Iran? The Iranian government is not exactly known for it's transparency or truthfulness. The recent presidential election in the country is proof of this.

So your logic is that if we don't like a country we can do what we like with their wildlife, no matter what they say. Nice...

 

[craig]

John, I don't know you and you don't know me, so why would you conclude from my previous post that I don't like a particular country? For the record, I don't have any feelings one way or the other regarding Iran. There are, however, problems with the government at the moment. The ongoing riots and protests prove this point. I also don't think it's o.k. for ANY country to disrespect it's wildlife and it was rude of you to infer otherwise.

 

[Tim Robin]

I also don't think it's o.k. for ANY country to disrespect it's wildlife and it was rude of you to infer otherwise.

Agreed and very well said! Your post in no way made any such inference. It was simply questioning the certainty of a single legal export of these newts.

 

[John]

I think my interpretation of what you said was quite reasonable. You should be more careful with what you write.

 

[Newtility]

Hello,

I apologize for some clear words on the last day of the old year. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or unawareness of CITES process and regulations and effects on the trade resp. captive maintenance. First of all CITES is a regulation for trade in endangered species. There are no regulations or effects on captive breeding or husbandry in general. Appendix I lists species which are under high threat from trade so being completely restricted from take and trade of wild specimen. This does not apply to captive bred individuals which may be traded under certain conditions, and they are restricted from being shown publically for commercial purposes. Strange enough this would mean that all Gorilla or Orang Utan would have to be kept off public viewers in zoos. Of course they have excemption permits but these are not granted for pet shops or private parties at least in Germany. Know several annoying examples for that. If, and I strictly disbelieve that N. kaiseri will be placed in App. I, then all kaiseri would not be allowed to be shown on fairs anymore. And their trade would be monitored strictly meaning that all moves in this species would then have to be due to application and permit from CITES enforcing agencies. Literally any move of any specimen would have to be indicated, even when taking it to the vet. Who believes that any party of the CITES treaty wants to have thousands of applications every year for a species which is bred by the thousands every year at least in Germany/Europe? I know more than one breeder having raised over 300 kaiseri this year alone. Even if placed in App. I this would not affect any specimen present in captivity at the time of empowering. Just causing more bureaucracy. Of course not in the USA, lucky you. In Europe we already have to register each and every change in our captive stock. The effect on wild populations? Zero! Same as in many countries where animals are "protected" officially but being eradicated without any governmental organization acting against it, e.g. the Ambystomas and Pupfishes in Mexico, California Tigersalamanders in the USA (they are decreasing very fast! But still their ponds are dried and their habitats "developed") or the Mountain Gorillas or several species of chameleons in Cameroon, and on Madagascar. The list is endless.

Placing kaiseri on App. II would not be much different from App. I as far as wild populations are concerned as both statuses mean to restrict any take and being managed by the single country of origine based on the standing committee´s annual quota. This quota of course would be set at zero except for scientific purpose. What the heck? We have plenty of these newts and they will stay in the hobby forever. As for all CITES II species this is only relevant for moving animals over borders e.g. from the EU or the USA to countries outside.

So please, folks, don´t panic or spread utter nonsense like "private possession will be illegal" etc.! The Komodo Dragon is CITES App. I and I could buy a dozen of them in Indonesia anytime from farm stock. Only that the EU doesn´t grant permit for it´s importation. Same for Andrias davidianus from China. They raise them there for dinner but we are not allowed to buy some. I am so happy that all these "environmentalists" and "animal rights people" tend to make a big ballyhoo on everything thus changing many politician´s simple minds to set up idiotical laws and restrictions. Meanwhile hundreds of species have become extinct but gladly are present in captivity. And never - never ever - anybody was able to show evidence that a single species was eradicated for the pet hobby. Surely for fur, food and a million other dumn reasons (see the Pilgrim Dove, the Dodo, Steller´s Seecow etc.). Placing N. laiseri on any CITES Appendix simply is actionism as there is no trade in wild specimen of this species at all! The original stock from which mostly all kaiseri descent (except single collections under permit in 1995 and later in the early 2000s) came from a farm in the Ukraine - and those specimen traded to my knowledge where all farm raised. They still farm raise many, many of them every year. Of course, wc sell better even if they only are from what they are named. Good to know that all these romantic characters willingly pick up every bull**** somebody spreads over the web. Like in laoensis which was said to be proposed for CITES as well but is not at all. Local people in Laos are eating them, still and without scruples. Wether on CITES or not. Again, CITES is a treaty to protect wild animals from overcollecting and to regulate the trade in ENDANGERED species. Who is going to Laos to collect laoensis? I know one of the german guys who collected them first. And I know the japanese wholesaler who followed them up. These guys made this species available to dedicated breeders who now have already raised several hundred juveniles from just a few breeding pairs. I am proud to own 2 pairs F1 from 2006 as these are way better in color than any wc I´ve seen. And prices at least in Europe have dropped far below wc prices. So, who will go collecting them? Nobody. Simply because it doesn´t pay anymore. Captive breeding is the best protection from collecting for wild populations. But we can not protect them from being dug under for real estate profit or agriculture.

If kaiseri would really be placed on CITES Appendices, then I suppose for political reason primarily. Simply to show acceptance towards the Iran and it´s "opening towards the western world". Hahaha! The same fake was already done by Turkey when they had their amphibians and reptiles being listed under the European Species Protection Act. A good attempt to open the door for European Union membership. Simply that. In Turkey they don´t care for these animals at all, not the local people nor officials. But they are great cards for pokering.

The great effect of CITES was just recently confirmed when the Axolotl (Ambystoma mexicanum) was officially declared to have become extinct! We are working on identifying unmixed stock of this species (looks as if there are at least a few specimen not being Humphrey-Axolotl) in captivity in Germany and if they really are true wild types will breed them and spread this stock. Meanwhile we will have to apply for CITES permits for cb Axolotl which don´t have much more in common with the true species but the name as they are mixed breeds of mexicanum x tigrinum (or was it mavortium?).

To make a long story short - don´t be scared by kaiseri being listed under CITES or not. And keep in mind that good intentions are wonderful. But good deeds are better. So breed to protect rather than protect from take.

A happy New Year to all of you!

Best regards,
Steffen

 

[Jake]

How can it be known for sure that there has only been one legal export of kaiseri from Iran? The Iranian government is not exactly known for it's transparency or truthfulness. The recent presidential election in the country is proof of this.

So your logic is that if we don't like a country we can do what we like with their wildlife, no matter what they say. Nice...

John- Nowhere in that post did Craig say anything about not liking Iran or disrespecting their wildlife. He was simply questioning weather or not there had in fact been only one group of legally exported kaiseri from Iran. It is certainly possible that there were others you are not aware of. The Iranian government is not honest about everything, neither is the Irish government, or the United States government..

I think my interpretation of what you said was quite reasonable. You should be more careful with what you write.

The only person who should have been careful about what they wrote was you, John. Your interpretation was in fact unreasonable, and I'm sure plenty of others here agree but won't say anything because you're the "founder" of the site. Get off your high horse, apologize and admit you were wrong.

 

[Azhael]

Your interpretation was in fact unreasonable, and I'm sure plenty of others here agree but won't say anything because you're the "founder" of the site. Get off your high horse, apologize and admit you were wrong.

Oh....enough with the anti-John attacks...it´s tiresome...
For the record, Craig may not realize it, and i´m sure it wasn´t his intention, but it´s VERY easy to see that Craig´s words boil down to "It´s Iran...why should we trust them?" which is definitely not a nice sentiment.
Craig´s exact words can be said about the US (just trying to be fair, not to push anyone´s buttons...it can be said about every country in the world, really...), and yet we are expected to value the US´s word and not Iran´s? Not fair...not fair at all.

 

[Azhael]

John speaks his mind in a direct manner, we all know that, but to say he is disrespectful is to stretch it a lot.
I wouldn´t have phrased it like John did, but i can see why Craig´s words got such a reaction from him.
You say it´s not ok for him to say whatever he wants just because it´s his site...well, it´s not ok to say Iran is untrustworthy just because it´s Iran.

 

[Azhael]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

You are absolutely right Jay....i suposse i just fail to see how John´s words are rude or disrespectful.

 

[Tim Robin]

Are you saying you have to have a cbw permit for appendix I radiateds but not for appendix I Pyxis arachnoides and P.planicauda?Thats a contradiction. I know people who have spider tortoises and they have permits for them. Also when you apply as the origin of the cbw permit you have to have cites paperwork. So when you buy an animal from someone who already has a permit you don't need a cites permit but when you apply for cbw and you are the origin for the species you need a cites document.Thats how USFW knows the animals are legal.They can't give you a cbw without verifying the original cites paperwork for the animal.This is especially true for things like Pyxis which were heavily exported as appendix II for years with documentation. It is not hard to get cites papers on appendix 2 animals especially ones that were legally imported at one time(all you do is apply and answer some questions etc.) But if you have a cites I animal and you apply for a cbw you better have cites paperwork or someone down the line has to be able to trace it. This is why it is so easy to get a cbw permit when you are buying an animal from someone who already has a permit.USFW has already verified legality of the animals at some point prior to your possession of the species.

I guess we are talking apples and oranges. Yes, a CITES permit had to be obtained when any animal listed was imported. However, once inside the country, no permit is needed to buy or sell these animals. The exception to this is with species listed as endangered or threatened under the U.S. Endangered Species Act. This is where the Radiated tortoise fits in and requires a CBW permit for any interstate movement. Pyxis and many others are listed as "critically endangered on the IUCN Red List". However, being listed as such does not need any permits for interstate movement withing the US.

​

 

[Jake]

Oh....enough with the anti-John attacks...it´s tiresome...
For the record, Craig may not realize it, and i´m sure it wasn´t his intention, but it´s VERY easy to see that Craig´s words boil down to "It´s Iran...why should we trust them?" which is definitely not a nice sentiment.
Craig´s exact words can be said about the US (just trying to be fair, not to push anyone´s buttons...it can be said about every country in the world, really...), and yet we are expected to value the US´s word and not Iran´s? Not fair...not fair at all.

Rodrigo- it was not an "anti-John attack". As much as I really dislike the guy, it was actually an anti-ignorance statement, not an attack at all. You shouldn't value the words of a government, I don't care which government is in question (and that goes for the "government" of this forum as well). I never said anyone should value the US's word, in fact if anything I said the opposite. I belive my exact words were: "The Iranian government is not honest about everything, neither is the Irish government, or the United States government." Governments that are 100% honest simply don't exist, and some are more dishonest than others.

If anyone made an attack it was John with his original, rude, conclusion about Craig's outlook on the situation. It's funny, if anyone else acts like that there are repercussions (infractions, deletion of posts, "suspension" from the forum oh my!!). When the "founder" does it, everything is ok because he's got his puppets to back him up. That's great.

 

[craig]

Wow, I seemed to have opened a can of worms. Let me ask again, because it has yet to be answered: How do we know there has only been one legal shipment of kaiseri out of Iran? This is a politically unstable area and records for salamander shipments are probably not a top priority. And the reason that I mention Iran is because Neurergus kaiseri is only found in Iran. If they were found in Ireland or the U.S. or some other country I might be asking a similar question. It's o.k. if you don't have the answer, but please don't make assumptions about my intentions.

Thank you to those of you who came to my defense. I'm sorry this has caused a small turmoil. Happy New Year!

 

[Azhael]

Rodrigo- it was not an "anti-John attack". As much as I really dislike the guy, it was actually an anti-ignorance statement, not an attack at all. You shouldn't value the words of a government, I don't care which government is in question (and that goes for the "government" of this forum as well). I never said anyone should value the US's word, in fact if anything I said the opposite. I belive my exact words were: "The Iranian government is not honest about everything, neither is the Irish government, or the United States government." Governments that are 100% honest simply don't exist, and some are more dishonest than others.

If anyone made an attack it was John with his original, rude, conclusion about Craig's outlook on the situation. It's funny, if anyone else acts like that there are repercussions (infractions, deletion of posts, "suspension" from the forum oh my!!). When the "founder" does it, everything is ok because he's got his puppets to back him up. That's great.

I do not wish to engage myself in further discussion because i find it completely unnecessary, but i will say that i do NOT apreciate being called a puppet.
Now, let´s get back to the CITES bussiness.

 

[michael]

Maybe it's an oversimplification on my behalf. If USFW issues import paperwork for c.b. animals to be imported I consider them to be legal to have.

I do think it's terrible how so many interesting threads on this web site deteriorate into insults and half truths. I'm not pointing the finger at anybody and do think their is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

At least some good has come of this mess. I have found a wealth of information on the CITES site concerning this species. This made me much happier, as some of it was details I had not ever read before.

in particular, I found the attached PDF very informative on both the issue at hand and the animal itself.