Neurergus kaiseri CITES Appendix I soon?

[John]

( For anyone arriving at this thread late, CITES have extended Appendix I listing to the species as of March 21st 2010. You can read more about it here: http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1-gen...stan-newt-receives-full-cites-protection.html )

 

[gustav]

On 13-25 March 2010 the Fifteenth meeting of the Conference of the Parties of CITES will take place in Doha (Qatar).

The Islamic Republic of Iran made the proposal to include Neurergus kaiseri in Appendix I of CITES.

The European Union (document here)
"Urges the Commission and the Member States to support the following proposals:
...
- the listing of Neurergus kaiseri (salamandrid species) on CITES Appendix I, in line
with the proposal of Iran;
"

We will see what will happen in march...

does anyone know how when this would have consequences for us breeders?

 

[NewtZoo]

Hey thanks for posting. Very interesting! Will you let us know what happens?

 

[Tim Robin]

My understanding of CITES is that animals on Appendix I cannot be imported or exported. There is no regulation on sales of animals inside the country. It should not affect any breeder that currently has animals, unless you export any offspring, which would no longer be allowed.

 

[michael]

My guess is that if it passes it will be illegal to posses N. kaiseri without a special permit. Generally speaking CITES II means business as usual within national boundaries. CITES I normally means special permits are needed to posses. This will be real interesting to follow and could have big financial repercussions for some breeders and hobbyists.

 

[Mark]

Nice to see CC get a mention in the captive breeding section of the proposal.

I hope this goes through, even if it does lead to difficulties for private keepers. A small price to pay to help save a species.

 

[John]

Sadly much of their information regarding the pet trade is plain incorrect (e.g. I am fairly certain the animals that were for sale by the Canadian were actually captive bred in Europe, however their importation to Canada was likely illegal but that has nothing to do with this proposal).

We knew the CITES I listing was coming down soon so this is nothing new. It will mean that all animals will require permits and since none were legally exported, no permits are available, therefore all animals will be in violation of the CITES listing. This is likely the end of the road for legal hobbyists breeding this species. However I'm sure we will see plenty of illegal keeping and trading in this species.

I would like to take a moment and lay the blame for this species' status in the wild squarely on the shoulders of Dr Sebastian Steinfartz and his friends who brought back specimens illegally from Iran about 10 years ago, only to breed them and sell them for huge sums of money, thus leading to the mass harvesting of this poor animal and its potential extinction in the wild. Well done Dr. Steinfartz - shame on you sir.

 

[Coastal Groovin]

Has there even been a study of how many of these animals are left in the wild? I think and I guess are not science. The best hope for these animals if they going extinct is the people that captive breed them. To make it illegal can doom these animals. I guess they will make permits no expensive and so hard to aquire that people will abandon their CB efforts. Way to go guys way to go. Adding them to CITIES wil not stop the illegal collection, it will not stop their declining numbers, and will not save this animal. Only CB programs by people in the hobby will save them.

 

[John]

The population data is fairly sound. I agree with you in principle on the rest but you have to keep in mind that Iran never legally exported any individuals of this species except to one researcher a long time ago. Under CITES (there is no second I) there cannot be any permits for illegally exported animals. That's just the way it is.

 

[Mark]

Only CB programs by people in the hobby will save them.

I disagree. There are very few private keepers who have the facilities, expertise and financial resources to be taken seriously. The hope for this species lies in serious international protection and zoo breeding schemes.

Show me a tangible, hobbyist driven captive breeding program which has the clout, respect and resource to save this species - or any amphibian for that matter.

 

[Coastal Groovin]

How will people get permits for their animals then? Should everyone that has these animals in their collection just send them to a Zoo when this passes and let them deal with them? Or should they just wait for game and fish to knock at the door and then flush them? What are keepers to do then?

 

[SludgeMunkey]

<smacks own forehead in frustration>

So, when this goes down what is the next step? Break out the 20% Benzocaine solution? Deposit the unhatched eggs in the freezer? Shred piles of records and documentation?

 

[Coastal Groovin]

I have seen people that have been successful breeding these animals. I'm sure there are more but you won't heat about them now. I'm sure there are even more in Europe. Any animals that are being captive bred in zoo's are going to need captive bred animals from everyone that has them to bring genetic diversity into their programs. Since it has been written on this site more than once that there are under 2000 animals left in the wild this will be very important. And there is no doubt this news will speed up their collection. So every animal is going to be needed. An extremely under funded zoo with a dozen animals will need help to save them. Our zoo's are working now to save thousands of species that are on the verge of extinction because of man. These newts are not cute and fuzzy or stare at you with big brown eyes. I don't see a big donation coming from some rich old lady to start a huge captive breeding program coming anytime soon. It will take everyone to save them and hobbists should not be pushed out with impossible and expensive permits. A registration of animals and grandfathering these animals already in captivity would be a better way to go. But that is just my opinion and we all know that old saying.

 

[Azhael]

I disagree. There are very few private keepers who have the facilities, expertise and financial resources to be taken seriously. The hope for this species lies in serious international protection and zoo breeding schemes.

Show me a tangible, hobbyist driven captive breeding program which has the clout, respect and resource to save this species - or any amphibian for that matter.

I couldn´t agree more.

Breeding them in captivity in large numbers is brilliant for the hobby, but means absolutely nothing for the species, because all those animals do not have the genetic integrity and quality needed for a possible reintroduction.

I think this meassure of including them in CITES is a blessing. We have to think about the well-being of the species, not our benefit!!!!! To be thinking about what will happen to our animals or the hobby instead of what can inmediately happen to the species is, with all due respect, selfish.

I wonder what will happen with all those CB animals already in the hobby, can anyone share a similar experience with other species that were already stablished in the hobby and have been later on included in CITES?

 

[gustav]

I would like to take a moment and lay the blame for this species' status in the wild squarely on the shoulders of Dr Sebastian Steinfartz and his friends who brought back specimens illegally from Iran about 10 years ago, only to breed them and sell them for huge sums of money, thus leading to the mass harvesting of this poor animal and its potential extinction in the wild. Well done Dr. Steinfartz - shame on you sir.

One of his friends already commented in this thread:
"In 1995 no urodela species was protected by law in Iran. We needed a permit only for shipping by plane and got it from the chief vet in Teheran. We shipped N. kaiseri, N. microspilotus and S. s. semenovi. All we did was well known by the government."

Has anyone evidence that this statement is false?

Otherwise i don't know what they should have done wrong.
Obviously they did not import them "only to breed them and sell them for huge sums of money" - on the webpage of Salamanderland i count six publications where these scientists were involved.

Also the site states that after they first bred in 1996 "The people interest for the offsprings at that time was so low that the young animals had to be partly given away into less careful hands, which led to the rapid decrease of the kept population."

I don't know if we should blame scientists for their research on rare species.
The demand is always created by the customers and the global pet trade will satisfy it.

 

[Tim Robin]

Animals listed on CITES Appendix I do not require a permit to possess or purchase. Remember CITES is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, How CITES works its purpose is the regulation of trading animals. We have tortoises that are listed on CITES Appendix I and no permit is required. We are able to sell offspring in the country we reside. Again, hobbyists will be able to continue breeding and establishing a captive bred population, it will simply make importing or exporting animals nearly impossible.

 

[michael]

Some if not all of the N. kaiseri I imported from Canada were c.b. in Canada. I visited the breeders house and saw breeding facilities, larvae, and juveniles. I don't deny that the breeder I worked with in Canada has since proven himself to be a liar and scoundrel. I do feel confident that he bred N. kaiseri at his house. I bred N. kaiseri at my home for a couple years in the U.S.

Due to the controversy of keeping and breeding Neurergus kaiseri I sold all of my imported and c.b. U.S. N. kaiseri and made room for other species of salamanders. Their is a cloud over the legitimacy of these animals in the hobby. I do lean to them being legitimate in the U.S. since they were imported with USFW paperwork. It is a tricky area and I made the decision a couple years ago to no longer be involved in keeping them.

 

[John]

One of his friends already commented in this thread:
"In 1995 no urodela species was protected by law in Iran. We needed a permit only for shipping by plane and got it from the chief vet in Teheran. We shipped N. kaiseri, N. microspilotus and S. s. semenovi. All we did was well known by the government."

Has anyone evidence that this statement is false?

Iran saying there has only ever been one legal export in history is evidence enough for me.

Otherwise i don't know what they should have done wrong.
Obviously they did not import them "only to breed them and sell them for huge sums of money" - on the webpage of Salamanderland i count six publications where these scientists were involved.

Also the site states that after they first bred in 1996 "The people interest for the offsprings at that time was so low that the young animals had to be partly given away into less careful hands, which led to the rapid decrease of the kept population."

I don't know if we should blame scientists for their research on rare species.
The demand is always created by the customers and the global pet trade will satisfy it.

I have witnessed Steinfartz personally sell these animals for considerable sums of money at Gersfeld. By far the most expensive newt for sale that I saw and everyone crowded around his tanks to see them and to queue up to buy them.

Gustav, I'm sorry to say that being a scientist does not make a person an angel.

Addendum: I want to make it clear that the main blame I'm laying on him is the price of the animals - there would be little illegal collection of this species but for the initial pricing set on them. It simply wouldn't be economical for the collectors.

 

[John]

More likely appendixII and that is no problem as long as you can get cites paperwork(which would be easy for kaiseri).even if they go appendix I it would be very easy to get that permit because of all the legally imported specimens that have all had the necessary documents.

There are no legal exports of those animals to the trade, therefore CITES papers won't be available. Iran acknowledges only a single legal export of these animals and it was to a true scientific researcher.

If you want to place blame on someone for kaiseri's numbers in the pet trade blame Dimitri in the Ukraine , he's the one who exported most of the wildcaughts over the last few years. All with appropriate papers from USFW, legally collected or not.

The blame goes on the people who set the price of these animals and therefore made it a lucrative trade for people like this Dimitri (I'm sure there are a few hundred thousands Dimitris in the Ukraine though).

 

[Tim Robin]

CITES is only concerned with importing and exporting animals. CITES has nothing to do with interstate movement, within the US. There are a couple of regulations that do apply to interstate movement of animals. Those regulations have to do with animals that are listed as "endangered or threatened". For non-native species an example, Radiated tortoises are endangered and a CBW (Captive-Bred Wildlife) permit is required for any interstate sales. Sales of such animals can be made intrastate with no permit. A permit is not required to possess such animals only for movement from state to state. For native species a ESA permit is required for movement of animals from state to state, but again no permit is required for intrastate sales or movement. A couple of examples of this are the San Esteban Chuckwalla or the Bog turtle, where these occur naturally within the US. Remember CITES is country to country (international), it has nothing to do with animals inside a country, at least the US, What is CITES?.