Neurergus kaiseri prices

[pete]

Well, I'd argue that it's not the price that makes them fashionable or gives them a mystique. For instance you could toss some on the market for 3x their current value, and you'd have a hard time finding a demand. I suspect that setting an artificially high price on them would actually decrease demand. The current price just reflects the current supply or demand.

I agree with your second statement in that I'm all for people with good business ethics and supporting the hobbyist community. I just don't think charging the current market price constitutes "scalping".

 

[John]

Well, I'd argue that it's not the price that makes them fashionable or gives them a mystique. For instance you could toss some on the market for 3x their current value, and you'd have a hard time finding a demand. I suspect that setting an artificially high price on them would actually decrease demand. The current price just reflects the current supply or demand.

We're not talking about a country-size economy here. The price was high from the beginning because the original breeders set the trend for it. They made this species chic and the subsequent demand helped them maintain their high asking prices. Whatever way you look at it, they created this farce. You must also remember (I doubt you are aware of it) but until these guys started doing this, the species was virtually unknown outside Iran. The reason the wild stock are now being harvested so much is totally due to the original captive breeders who collected their own stock and charged crazy prices for the offspring.

 

[pete]

Does the dime-a-dozen-price of other more commonly available caudate species prevents their collection in the wild?

 

[John]

Does the dime-a-dozen-price of other more commonly available caudate species prevent their collection in the wild?

No, it doesn't, but neither did it have anything to do with why those species are collected from the wild. I challenge anyone to contradict my assertion that the high prices of kaiseri demanded by those people who initially bred them are largely responsible for the surge in commercial collection from the wild in recent years (remember, there was virtually zero collection of kaiseri prior to this decade).

 

[pete]

So the current ridiculously high price demanded for A. andersoni is likely going to result in its wild collection?

 

[Jake]

A high price on newts isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it also minimizes impulse purchases.

Exactly. If kaiseri were to cost as much as the Pachytriton or Cynops in the pet trade they would have gone extinct a long time ago.

 

[Jennewt]

Sorry, but cb kaiseri should not be any more expensive than cb orientalis or any other newt. They're certainly not any more labor intensive or expensive to raise.

I sooooo wish I could agree with this, but there's a fundamental problem. If I and 10 other generous breeders raise as many kaiseri juvs as we can, and then sell them for $5 each, they will be "sold out" in about 2 days. With the price that low, and a limited supply, the demand becomes virtually infinite. Then after that 2-day sale, the importers go back to selling their $120 WC animals, and there are still enough "craving" people out there to buy them. There is just no way to ever satisfy the demand for a newt this pretty; none of us have the capacity to raise a thousand of them (I wish!) And from what I've seen, the vast majority of the people who have them will never offer a single egg/juv to anyone else.

Without an economic incentive, there are only a few of us on the planet who are willing spend the time it takes to raise & ship stuff. To read what all the hobbyists on this site have to say, they all make it sound like they want to breed their newts for the greater good of all of us. Ha! How many of them actually make it to the post office with animals they are sharing with anyone else (particularly animals they are sharing with anyone beyond their buddies?) The demand for these WC animals is coming from people beyond our "buddy list" (including the rich idiots who buy them to toss into their fish tank), and until we can produce enough offspring to satisfy that demand, we can't do a darned thing about it.

I wish it were otherwise... and I DARE you all to prove me wrong by breeding and cheaply selling a ton of these critters!

 

[nate]

A high price on newts isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it also minimizes impulse purchases.

I'm not going to delve into what I feel is the faulty reasoning of this assertion, but will jump right to the point that impulse purchases are irrelevant in the case of kaiseri. What's relevant is that large groups of adults are being removed from a very small wild population due to high monetary returns, driving the animal closer to extinction. Whether the animals die at the hands of an impulse purchase, at the distributors' warehouse, or even in the hands of a hobbyist with the best possible care, the dire problem for the wild population remains unabated.

Does the dime-a-dozen-price of other more commonly available caudate species prevents their collection in the wild?

Plentiful newt species have always been collected and sold for cheap prices in the international pet trade. In the case of the US or EU for instance though, we have laws preventing beautiful species with very small ranges or populations from being ravaged by the pet trade, such as N. meridionalis or Salamandrina. But kaiseri have no such protection. There are other salamanders in Iran, and they are not being collected. It is specifically the high value of kaiseri and easy collection methodthat makes them the only current Iranian target.

So the current ridiculously high price demanded for A. andersoni is likely going to result in its wild collection?

It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility. Again, the difference here between kaiseri and andersoni is legality. If someone can indeed figure out a way to get down to Mexico and spend perhaps 200$ to collect 200 andersoni in a weekend and then get back to the states and legally sell them for 150$ each...well, you do the math. It's quite profitable. It unquestionably would happen.

If I and 10 other generous breeders raise as many kaiseri juvs as we can, and then sell them for $5 each, they will be "sold out" in about 2 days. With the price that low, and a limited supply, the demand becomes virtually infinite. Then after that 2-day sale, the importers go back to selling their $120 WC animals, and there are still enough "craving" people out there to buy them. There is just no way to ever satisfy the demand for a newt this pretty; none of us have the capacity to raise a thousand of them (I wish!)

Please reconsider this. Even if you only sold 50 at 5$ each on a high-profile site like Kingsnake.com, it would give invaluable pause for thought. It's an enormous price discrepancy. People, especially the dealers examining the competition's prices, pay close attention on that site. People would email the sellers and ask why their newts are 150$ when I saw them last week for 5$? What would the dealer say? Nothing could be said, other than a defense of what the dealer paid for them to begin with. The dealers offering kaiseri would then have to seriously rethink purchasing the far more expensive animals next year. They would contact the hobbyists and see if they could buy directly from them instead. It could potentially cut the profit of the collectors in half in one year, I absolutely believe that. It would not be difficult for 10 hobbyists to equal the output (230) of WC kaiseri imported this year.

The demand for these WC animals is coming from people beyond our "buddy list" (including the rich idiots who buy them to toss into their fish tank),

Certainly.

and until we can produce enough offspring to satisfy that demand, we can't do a darned thing about it.

Here's where I disgaree. Selling even a group of 50$ at 5$ a piece would have an enormous impact on the psyche of the buying public. Especially if they emailed you, and found out they could wait another year to get a group at 5$ a piece. The problem is, none of the hobbyists are willing to do it when they could make 5K instead.

Honestly, I'm a little shocked at all the defense of kaiseri prices on this forum. Make no mistake about it, kaiseri are critically endangered. Why? The high profit of collection for the pet trade. Basically what I'm getting from people here is as follows:

I know that kaiseri is critically endangered and going extinct due to collection for the pet trade. I know that the large public demand for such a rare, colorful species and high import profit make this very difficult to stop. It's a dire situation. I've thought long and hard about it, and have decided it's out of my control. So rather than get upset about it or try anything radical like selling them for 5$ each, I'm going to get my slice of the pie.

 

[Ralf]

AW: Neurergus kaiseri prices

Certainly not the first species being sent to netherworld because of its prettiness and greed. How come I'm so glad that Cynops orphicus are rather dull brown animals?

 

[pete]

Well, I'd never buy a newt for $120. I'm sure I'm not the only one. $5 on a beautiful newt that I have no experience with, and suddenly the animal becomes a viable option. Decrease the price, and I'd guess the collectors try to make up for it in volume, which they could because the demand would go up significantly. Maybe that's faulty logic.

My main argument is simply that price is not the factor that makes these animals attractive. It's other societal forces. Price as you stated doesn't affect wild collection of other species salamanders. In those cases it's other forces that dictate the animals status including laws, interest in the salamander species, and accessibility. Even the subtitle of this forum section implies that it's the beauty of the newt that makes them desirable, "Arguably the most beautiful newts in the world, this Asian genus is highly desired by many hobbyists." Honestly, I think increasing the price could be more effective for achieving the desired goals, because if you put them up for $500. Less people would be interested in buying them, and you'd drive down demand.

I highly doubt that decreasing the price would have the desired effect. If you have serious concerns about the species, I think a campaign to raise awareness or change laws would be much more affective. I also think blaming captive vendors is silly. Why not blame the people that buy the newts? I'm not saying it's not a problem, but regardless of what happens this will all resolve as the supply of CB salamanders increase. Anyone that has ever bought exotic pets knows that whatever is the novel pet of fashion at the moment will be expensive initially, and as demand wanes and supply increases prices fall. I think the assertion that artificially lowering prices of CB animals as solution is poppycock. If anything CB animals should have higher value than WC animals.

As for;

I know that kaiseri is critically endangered and going extinct due to collection for the pet trade. I know that the large public demand for such a rare, colorful species and high import profit make this very difficult to stop. It's a dire situation. I've thought long and hard about it, and have decided it's out of my control. So rather than get upset about it or try anything radical like selling them for 5$ each, I'm going to get my slice of the pie.

I'd say it's more of this.

I know that kaiseri is critically endangered and going extinct due to collection for the pet trade. I know that the large public demand for such a rare, colorful species and high import profit make this very difficult to stop. It's a dire situation. I've thought long and hard about it, and have decided that both supply and demand is a problem. The blame game is an ineffective solution. Rather than getting outraged and asking CB suppliers to sacrifice for a radical and idealistic solution that I think will be ineffective; I'd chose to get on board something better thought out. Until then, however, I hope captive breeding stocks will increase, and this should be encouraged by rewarding breeders rather than punishing them.

You, however, propose an interesting experiment. So, whenever that supplier puts their 50 newts up for $5.00. I'll watch to see what occurs.

 

[nate]

How come I'm so glad that Cynops orphicus are rather dull brown animals?

Well, I recall when orphicus did show up in 2006 or so, they were still 75$ each. In today's market, I'd guess they crack 100$

Decrease the price, and I'd guess the collectors try to make up for it in volume, which they could because the demand would go up significantly. Maybe that's faulty logic.

They can't make up for it in volume. There's a reason they have only been able to collect around 200 at a time, because those are the only breeding adults above ground. If they could collect more at a time, of course they would.

My main argument is simply that price is not the factor that makes these animals attractive.

Attractive to whom? To the buying public or the collectors who go to Iran? Of course the price is what makes them attractive to the collectors.

Honestly, I think increasing the price could be more effective for achieving the desired goals, because if you put them up for $500. Less people would be interested in buying them, and you'd drive down demand.

This makes no sense. If hobbyists are offering them at 500$, then 120$ for a wild-caught animal is a bargain. It does nothing to curtail the profit of collecting wild adults.

If you have serious concerns about the species, I think a campaign to raise awareness or change laws would be much more affective.

Unfortunately, kaiseri doesn't have that kind of time. And may I remind you, this is Iran we're talking about.

I also think blaming captive vendors is silly. Why not blame the people that buy the newts? I'm not saying it's not a problem, but regardless of what happens this will all resolve as the supply of CB salamanders increase. Anyone that has ever bought exotic pets knows that whatever is the novel pet of fashion at the moment will be expensive initially, and as demand wanes and supply increases prices fall.

There aren't enough kaiseri left in the world at this point to supply the demand. This is the problem with this line of reasoning with regards to kaiseri. Your logic is sound with many other animals, but not this one. We're not talking sugar gliders. We're talking about a species that may very well have less than 200 animals left in the wild now.

I'd say it's more of this.

I know that kaiseri is critically endangered and going extinct due to collection for the pet trade. I know that the large public demand for such a rare, colorful species and high import profit make this very difficult to stop. It's a dire situation. I've thought long and hard about it, and have decided that both supply and demand is a problem. The blame game is an ineffective solution. Rather than getting outraged and asking CB suppliers to sacrifice for a radical and idealistic solution that I think will be ineffective; I'd chose to get on board something better thought out. Until then, however, I hope captive breeding stocks will increase, and this should be encouraged by rewarding breeders rather than punishing them.

Well, to me, this pretty much falls in line with my original. If the reason for the extinction threat a species faces is its profitability, I don't think efforts to decrease the profitability are "radical". Call me crazy

 

[freves]

To answer your original question John, I recently acquired a group of 2.4 for just over 80.00 each. They were at a herp show in SC. The dealer was selling them as CB however I strongly suspect otherwise. I do not feel great knowing that these animals were probably taken out of the wild. A friend pointed out that it is not like these animals can be put back into the wild and if I didn't buy them someone else would have, adding that they would be better off with someone who has experience with salamanders. It is a loose argument but it does provide some measure of comfort.
Chip

 

[Lee31]

Apart from the two charity fundraising auctions I have held, I have given away 36 CB N. kaiseri to experienced keepers to establish breeding groups which should now be nearing maturity.

Hi

I am very intersted in this thread and am a breeder of T.Marmoratus, Pygmy marmoratus, palmates, bandeds, C. orientalis, alpestris, etc, and really want to step up a level to the kaiserii and strauchi, have you any juveniles available or soon available as i am very keen on being part of the captive breeding programme for these guys..

Lee

 

[pete]

Well, to me, this pretty much falls in line with my original. If the reason for the extinction threat a species faces is its profitability, I don't think efforts to decrease the profitability are "radical". Call me crazy

Well, if the situation is so immediate and dire that it's down to 200 newts in the wild, then the only realistic hope for this animal is promotion of a solid captive breeding program that works to maintain a genetically diverse captive population with the hope of reintroduction once the political and pet markets are favorable. Having breeders give their CB animals away won't encourage this.

I don't see a breeder or two pricing 50 animals $5 resulting in the dramatic change to the market that you foresee happening. At the very most someone would buy all 50 and resell them for the most they could get. Spend $250, make ~5-6K.... You want to talk about an easy way to make a buck. Do you think this wouldn't happen? It's probably more profitable than collecting them in the wild.

For the record you are the one that originally called your proposal "radical". I'd still rather hear a realistic solution to the newts plight. If you want to "decrease the profitabilty". The only real solution is to increase supply or decrease demand.

 

[Jake]

If you want to "decrease the profitabilty". The only real solution is to increase supply or decrease demand.

Decreasing the demand is out of the question. As long as kaiseri are rare and beautiful, there will be a demand for them. Increacing the supply would be the only "solution". Based on their status in the wild, it's clear that this is not really a "solution", just a small bandage on a gaping wound.

 

[nate]

Well, if the situation is so immediate and dire that it's down to 200 newts in the wild, then the only realistic hope for this animal is promotion of a solid captive breeding program that works to maintain a genetically diverse captive population with the hope of reintroduction once the political and pet markets are favorable.

Welcome to the gravity of the situation, and though you're a bit late, it is nice to finally have you here. Yes, most likely, it is the only realistic hope. And make no mistake, this is a direct result of people offering both CB and WC kaiseri at prices which over the last 6-7 years has encouraged poaching at a level which is not sustainable for the wild population. Supply and demand. Free market meets endangered species. The difference I suppose is, I'm not comfortable with people in the know (such as you and me and the readers of this thread or even this forum) continuing to profit from the situation (especially those who claim any interest in conservation) and give the wild collectors further incentive to wipe them out completely. I find it obscene, and think kaiseri breeders owe it to the species to try to save the remaining wild animals, despite the odds. You apparently don't.

I don't see a breeder or two pricing 50 animals $5 resulting in the dramatic change to the market that you foresee happening.

That's fine if you disagree, but note that no harm to the species would come of an attempt, only loss of potential profit to individuals.

At the very most someone would buy all 50 and resell them for the most they could get. Spend $250, make ~5-6K.... You want to talk about an easy way to make a buck. Do you think this wouldn't happen? It's probably more profitable than collecting them in the wild.

Actually, that'd be great if it was more profitable than collecting wild newts....afterall, that's the goal, to undercut the profit of the wild collecting! What you mention would likely happen to some extent (though you could easily limit to 2-4 newts per buyer to avoid it), but regardless, the current folks who purchase kaiseri online would have to seriously reassess if it's worth it to buy the expensive WC with the health risks involved instead of taking advantage of the 5$ cb. And even if they did resell at higher prices, why should anyone buy those if you can get them for 5$? And if supplies run out this year, why spend 600$ this year when I can spend 25$ next year?

I'd still rather hear a realistic solution to the newts plight.

Well me too, but if wasn't clear previously: the most realistic end of the newt's plight, is in fact, extinction.

 

[pete]

Welcome to the gravity of the situation, and though you're a bit late, it is nice to finally have you here. Yes, most likely, it is the only realistic hope. And make no mistake, this is a direct result of people offering both CB and WC kaiseri at prices which over the last 6-7 years has encouraged poaching at a level which is not sustainable for the wild population. Supply and demand. Free market meets endangered species. The difference I suppose is, I'm not comfortable with people in the know (such as you and me and the readers of this thread or even this forum) continuing to profit from the situation (especially those who claim any interest in conservation) and give the wild collectors further incentive to wipe them out completely. I find it obscene, and think kaiseri breeders owe it to the species to try to save the remaining wild animals, despite the odds. You apparently don't.

I do think the reality is ridiculous. As I said at the start of this discussion, I don't disagree with the spirit of this discussion. However, I am not a fan of hysterical outrage or blame game populist environmentalism that lead to poorly thought out, "feel-good", or ineffective solutions. Sure, it's silly that the fate of these salamanders falls on the backs of breeders. However, compared to other disappearing amphibians, I don't see the future of these guys as bleak as you do. The large price on their head, ability to captive breed, and interest in breeding them makes it very unlikely that they will be extinct anytime soon. I understand the absurdity of this, but I'm not alarmed. The fate of the newt is largely the result of the Internet, globalization, and world politics.

That's fine if you disagree, but note that no harm to the species would come of an attempt, only loss of potential profit to individuals.

Actually, that'd be great if it was more profitable than collecting wild newts....afterall, that's the goal, to undercut the profit of the wild collecting! What you mention would likely happen to some extent (though you could easily limit to 2-4 newts per buyer to avoid it), but regardless, the current folks who purchase kaiseri online would have to seriously reassess if it's worth it to buy the expensive WC with the health risks involved instead of taking advantage of the 5$ cb. And even if they did resell at higher prices, why should anyone buy those if you can get them for 5$? And if supplies run out this year, why spend 600$ this year when I can spend 25$ next year?

Ok, you missed the point on that one. It's only going to dent the price if the breeders have enough supply to seriously influence the market. It seems that that supply doesn't exist yet. Of course the price of the newt is going to fall if you wait one more year to purchase. We can see that happening reading this thread. That's normal market dynamics, but how many people put off buying that newt this year for next years cheaper price. Find someone to do your experiment, and if it stops wild collection, and the price fall next year to $5.00. I'll happily admit that I was wrong.

Ultimately, I believe artificially decreasing the price will both increase the demand and decrease captive breeding incentives. Neither of which I see as being good for the future of the newt. We're just going to have to disagree on this point. The best thing I can hope for is cheap exchange of breeding adults amongst breeders, which will would dramatically and rapidly increase the CB supply. However, let them have their profit incentive on individual collectors. I agree that breeders should try to help the species in the wild. I just think that they're contribution doesn't have to be at a huge financial loss. The WC problem will only be addressed through proper regulation of the habitat (not likely), a vast increase in the CB supply, a vast decrease in interest from collectors (through education), or a combination. In my view this is the only real solution to the problem, whether it is absurd or obscene is another question.

 

[Azhael]

I personally think in the next 2-3 years we are going to see a huge increase in N.kaiseri breeding (thanx to people like Alan, and other breeders), and i seriously hope that makes a difference....and that the species survives until then in the wild.
I´m disgusted by the way this species is treated like a nice piece of rock...hey it´s pretty let´s make it expensive...:S
The only solution i see, apart from breeding them like rabbits in captivity, is to increase awareness. People NEED to know what they are doing when they buy WC animals of this species, they need to know they are taking part in the extinction of the species. I think this is a more powerful weapon that most people think. If you manage to strike the right cord, people will automatically become interested. Ok, this are not pandas, they don´t inspire the same emotions, but they are pretty, and that can be used in their advantage.
I really think informing people, letting them know about the situation can make a change. There will always be people who don´t give a damn...they want something and they´ll get it if they have to extinguish the species themselves...
But those are a minority...a big number of people(from what i can see) lack seriously on information about this newts, and buy them because they are pretty and valuable...but given the right information, and the right amount of guilt, they´ll change radically.

On another topic, as far as i know their habitat is not severely damaged. They inhabit a relatively safe mountain range, right? That means, if conflict stops, and conditions get better, animals could be re-introduced.
I don´t know exactly how right or wrong i am on this, but simply discarding the possibility (and using it as an excuse) doesn´t sound right to me.

 

[nate]

The large price on their head, ability to captive breed, and interest in breeding them makes it very unlikely that they will be extinct anytime soon.

This is exactly what's going to make them go extinct soon. Don't confuse animals living in tanks at home with staving off functional extinction. No one is managing their animals for long-term genetic diversity. No one is quarantining the animals from the rest of their collection. When kaiseri goes extinct in the wild, hobbyist animals will not save the species. Hobbyists will simply have been recycling and inbreeding the same unknown genetic lines, knowingly or unknowingly crossing siblings, etc. and overall making a mess of the remaining genetics. And frankly, many will be ecstatic when the albinos or other profitable mutations start showing up...

Ok, you missed the point on that one. It's only going to dent the price if the breeders have enough supply to seriously influence the market. It seems that that supply doesn't exist yet. Of course the price of the newt is going to fall if you wait one more year to purchase. We can see that happening reading this thread.

There are only ~200 WC animals in the maket at a time, the roughly consistent number of breeding adults they can collect in a season. So 50 (25%) would in fact be a dent. And yeah, there have been more than 50 CB kaiseri available at a time over the years on several occasions. The price for kaiseri has remained pretty stable over the last 10 years. Sure, there are some wild price outliers, both high and low. Over that time, I've personally seen them as high as 250$ each and as low as 75$ each. There is virtually no change in the price of WC animals from 2004 to 2009. Certainly no level of change that threatens to render collecting wild caught adults obsolete. And let's just say for the sake of discussion that the price has indeed gone down 20-30$ or even 50$ during that 5-year span (I don't think it has)...it's an insufficient rate to put wild collecting out of business. They have held their value tremendously well. If there are any animals left to collect next year, rest assured, they'll be in the 100+ range.

I personally think in the next 2-3 years we are going to see a huge increase in N.kaiseri breeding (thanx to people like Alan, and other breeders), and i seriously hope that makes a difference....and that the species survives until then in the wild.

It will only make a difference if it drastically undercuts the profitability of collecting WC adults. Offering them for the same amount or more (because they're CB!) solves nothing. Offering them for free or close to free, like Alan, might.

On another topic, as far as i know their habitat is not severely damaged. They inhabit a relatively safe mountain range, right? That means, if conflict stops, and conditions get better, animals could be re-introduced.
I don´t know exactly how right or wrong i am on this, but simply discarding the possibility (and using it as an excuse) doesn´t sound right to me.

You are correct, the habitat is in good shape at this point. Animals can be reintroduced, but again, hobbyist animals will not be valuable for that unless they have been kept isolated with careful, proven tracking of genetics.

 

[taherman]

I've not seen data yet for amphibians, particularly highly endemic ones, that indicates proven tracking of genetics is necessary for a successful breeding/reintro program. There may not be a lot of variability in the species to begin with.

Maybe they should just federally/CITES I list them and outlaw the ownership of the species completely. Probably easier to change a few laws than alter the dynamics of capitalism.