New to Chinese fire bellies

[keiko]

So I've been looking into getting a few (3 or 4) chinese fire bellies, but so far pretty much all the information I can find about keeping them seems to be pretty conflicted. So I was thinking about telling you guys my plans and getting some feed back if it sounds good or if there's something I should do differently?

I've been looking to get about 85 liter aquarium (70 x 35 x 35 cm) with about 20 cm of water. I have a spare airpump powered sponge filter that I was thinking of using, but read that you shouldn't put any kind of filter in their tank, so I guess my question is: filter - yes or no? For the substrate I was thinking of very fine sand, but again read that sand is not good and you should only use bigger rocks. So is sand fine or should I just get rocks bigger than their heads? For the land area I was thinking either some kind of floating island or building one from bricks/stones. I was also thinking of getting some decorations big enough to break the water surface for a little extra land area. How big should the land area be for 3-4 cfb? Should I make the land area so that it has like a beach with water slowly getting deeper or is a sudden drop ok? For decoration I was thinking a lot of plants, some big rocks and a few hides.

I have a worm farm for my axolotls so would cfb be ok with staple of earth worms or should I get something else? I was also thinking of getting some bloodworms etc. to give them every now and then to have some variety.

Any other tips and advice would be appreciated too.

 

[Chinadog]

All they really need to be happy and healthy is clean cold water and tons and tons of live plants. If you have enough plants in there there's no need for a filter as the plants will look after the water quality and don't create water movement that these newts hate so much. You can use sand as a substrate if you want, I do, but bare bottomed is easier from a cleaning point of view and apart from feeding time it's quite rare for them to come down from the plants. A cork float or turtle dock is fine for a land section as they will hardly ever use it once they're settled.
Earthworms are a perfect staple that you can supplement with other things for variety like freshwater shrimp or bloodworms etc.
The biggest problem with Chinese firebellies is finding healthy stock. Buying wild caught newts from a petstore is risky at best and supports the deplorable way they are treated by the international pet trade. It's much better to find some captive bred animals, but these aren't always available and are usually sold as terrestrial juveniles that will need raising for a year or so before they are ready to live a fully aquatic life. Don't be fooled by petstores that say their newts are captive bred or captive farmed either, it's safe to say that all Asian newts sold by petstores are wild caught, it's just not financially possible to sell captive bred ones for the few pounds they cost.
All in all Fire bellies make great pets, they are responsive, fun to watch and simple to keep as well, but only if you start with healthy ones.
Hope this helps

 

[keiko]

Thanks for all the info!
I think I'll go with sand then because I think it's nicer to look at than bare bottom and try without the filter.

I visited a local pet store the other day to see if they have any fire bellies and turns out they do have a few. The girl there said they get fire bellies every now and then from Sweden from some place that breeds all their amphibians and lizards themselves. They would be about 17€/belly. Don't know if I can trust her about getting them from a breeder, but all of the fire bellies in the store seemed very healthy and none of them seemed to be on land. There's one small pet store that I know only sells animals that they breed themselves or get from local enthusiasts so I'll go check them out too. I'll probably also take a look around the internet to see if I can find some enthusiasts around here who might be selling just to be sure they're captive bred. I would hate to buy any wild caught animals.

 

[Chinadog]

It could also be worth posting a wanted add on here, you might find a breeder that way, or you may find someone looking to re home some older long term captive newts.

 

[Azhael]

The chance that those newts are CB is very low. Raising this species to adulthood takes time and effort and it makes little sense to invest on raising them only to then distribute them to shops were they will have a high mortality rate.
Personally i would assume they are WC like every other firebelly. It's not the first time that a pet-shop claims that their animals come from a breeder somewhere....it's never true and i doubt this would be the exception.

You shouldn't have much trouble finding breeders that will ship to you, be patient.

 

[keiko]

It's not legal to ship live animals in Finland. Pretty much the only option is to look for someone who breeds them within a reasonable distance to go get them myself. Actually I just found one guy who is selling all his fire bellies most of which have been born in his tank. Only problem now is to figure out how to get them from the other side of the country to me.

 

[caleb]

It's not the first time that a pet-shop claims that their animals come from a breeder somewhere....it's never true and i doubt this would be the exception.

It's not just the pet shops' fault.

Import/export data for (roughly) the last 10 years in the USA says that for shipments described as 'Cynops orientalis',

1302758 animals were declared as captive bred
1005472 animals were declared as wild caught
21110 animals were declared as 'other origin'
1399 animals were declared as unknown origin
1384 animals were declared as 'ranched'

I find it hard to believe that over a million captive bred (not farmed!) firebellies have been traded in a decade- I also can't see why they'd feel the need to lie on the export documents for this species.

 

[Chinadog]

There's a multi award winning aquatics and reptile shop near me that are usually spot on with the info they give out, who swear their Asian newts are captive farmed. They make no secret of the fact some of their other stuff is WC so I don't know why they would lie about newts, it must be the wholesalers who are telling them that's where they come from?

 

[keiko]

So I've been buying a lot of plants and other stuff for the firebellies and just got one more question. How do you guys "decorate" the land area? I'm thinking of using either just some piece of cork or a small floating turtle dock and would like to have some plants on it too. What kinds of plants would be good?

 

[Azhael]

I like to place java moss on my cork bark, the effect is very nice once it takes over. I also like liverworts, but those can be trickier to grow. They look amazing, though...

 

[Chinadog]

I use a plastic turtle dock with suckers on. I like it better than cork because it takes up less height above the water which means I can fill the tank up and get more water in there. Once I was happy with the position of it I draped some Java moss over it, once that was growing I added a handfull of terrestrial moss that I found in the woods over the top and just let it grow. I'm really happy how it's turned out, there must have been other things in the moss because there's some nice fern looking things growing up there now, as well.

 

[keiko]

That looks amazing, Chinadog!

Awesome, I just got a huge pile of java moss and was running out of ideas where to put all of it, but I'll use it on the land area then.

Any tips on how to clean the terrestrial moss from the woods if I decide to try that at some point?

 

[Chinadog]

I didn't clean it, its from an area that I know is free from any kind of chemicals and the soil in the area is ph neutral. I always get a small ball of it every week for my terrestrial Cynops juveniles to hide in.There are all sorts of small bugs etc for them to eat and they love hiding in it during the day.
I know there is a trend to keep amphibians in a clean sterile environment, but I prefer to let them benefit from the wild food that comes in on the moss and leaves that I use, hopefully their immune systems will become stronger as a result. I don't have a huge collection so I would know straight away if anyone was off colour.
If you use common sense and pick clean moss from pristine areas the benefits far exceed the risks.
That's just my view though, I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on the subject.

 

[Azhael]

The one thing to consider before collecting wild mosses is to make sure that there are no restrictions. Here at least, there are few places where it is legal to collect them and the more pristine the area, the more protected it is. Also, it is a good idea to have a basic knowledge of the local species as some of them are likely to be very rare and protected.

 

[sde]

I use a plastic turtle dock with suckers on. I like it better than cork because it takes up less height above the water which means I can fill the tank up and get more water in there. Once I was happy with the position of it I draped some Java moss over it, once that was growing I added a handfull of terrestrial moss that I found in the woods over the top and just let it grow. I'm really happy how it's turned out, there must have been other things in the moss because there's some nice fern looking things growing up there now, as well.

I did basically the same thing and it is working well. Johnny Farnen posed some great advise on growing moss. http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-...enclosures-vivaria-etc/60637-caudate-bar.html

If I am looking at the right thing, Chinadog, I believe that fern looking stuff is actually another type of moss. Looks great!

 

[keiko]

My tank is getting ready slowly but surely. I'll post a picture and would be grateful for any comments if there's anything I should do differently. I'm still waiting for a background I ordered online, think it'll make the newts feel a bit safer if all the sides aren't see through. Currently the tank is cycling and will probably be ready in about a week. I had a small sponge filter running in an established tank for about a month and then put in the new tank to help cycle it. I won't be turning it on, but at least there's a bit more bacteria in the sponges to keep the water clean. The plants seem to be growing already pretty nicely so hopefully they will cover the tank even more in a little while. The temperature is also steady at 18-19 C.

 

[Chinadog]

Looks great! I started with something similar and just let the plants grow pretty much unchecked. Did you find a source for the newts yet?

 

[keiko]

Looks great! I started with something similar and just let the plants grow pretty much unchecked. Did you find a source for the newts yet?

Thanks. That was my plan to just let the plants grow and spread as much as possible. I found one guy who is selling all his newts and will get some from him once the tank is ready.

 

[Asevernnnn]

Is there a lid? It looks kinda easy to escape from especially for H. orientalis.

 

[keiko]

Yes I have a mesh lid. It's just not in the picture.