Pacman eating a bufos americanus

sde

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Ok then! Point taken. I learned something new today! And I retract my statement. Although I will say in passing that scientists also used to believe that newborn babies nervousness systems were not yet developed enough to feel pain... They now KNOW this to be completely untrue. That being said, their study on the worms and lobsters is very convincing. Then again, I'm sure the newborn study was too. :rolleyes:
I was really glad to find out that they don't feel pain, I always felt kind of bad savagely putting them on a hook or cutting them into a dozen pieces.
Yah I agree, scientists are wrong a lot, and things always change. Their conclusions may change.
But in the mean time I suppose I will trust them.

By the way, Seth, I DO agree with you. But I kind of get the idea that limnologist is just looking for a heated discussion. Unfortunately, I don't think anything you say will change what he is doing. For what it's worth
It does kind of seem like he is trying to get a big argument going (success ), but at the same time he also seems like he is just trying to advance his knowledge in limnology, he just isn't doing it the right way. I did the same thing a while ago to try and advance my knowledge of herpetology and wild amphibians, but in the wrong way. I now am doing it in a much better way, reading, a lot ( ever printed off a 36 page PDF? ). -Seth
 

frogmandan

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I wasn't going to post on this but then something came to me last night, why in the world would you feed them that. I mean I know there's stories about people in India injecting them selves with cobra venom and doing just fine, even growing an am amunity to it but y would you do that to a frog. There's no possible reason except being sadistic and getting kicks out of potently harming your frog. To me your not showing good husbandry skills. Not to be mean, but if you can't take care of them right then don't have one. Infact in the united states its actually concederd abuse and neglect of your animal. I think you really need to think this through before the law gets involved and you get a fine the USDA/fwcs/and azaa take you for a run and yes they do go after citizens too
 

limnologist

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I hate when people do dumb stuff and call it "science".

I do dumb stuff all the time, but I usually don't feel the need to post about it on the internet.
I have a feeling you don't understand the meaning of the word "science"
 

limnologist

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I don't think anything is going to eat the poisonous pacman, apart from maybe another (possibly poisonous) pacman, so really don't see the point?
What use are these toxins, to the frog, unless the frog knows it is toxic?
Have you noticed any change in his demeanour?
Has the frog promised to only use his new-found toxicity for good, rather than evil?

For some reason I envision this passing up the food chain until you have poisonous horses, and it's a horse that finally did the fly-eating Old Woman in.
Please be careful, and let us know how you're getting on.
I just wanted to know that some animals can use the toxins for themselves. Maybe we can use the toxins for something. I have been interested in bufo toxins for a while.
 

limnologist

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It has been proven that worms do not feel pain. Worms and crayfish feel no pain - experts - IOL SciTech | IOL.co.za
The wiggling is a reaction, much like when a lizard loses its tale.



I am not saying that it is not fair to the Bufo americanus, i am saying that i dont think it is fair to the pacman.
It is eating a toxic toad. What would prevent that toxin from being harmful to the pacman? Maybe it can use the toxin. Great. But why would a captive animals need use for toxin? Also, i bet it will shorten its life or something. If you ate something, like...say...sugar (;)) wouldnt that shorten your life if you had enough of it?

I just dont see any benefit from it at all. I do, however, see plenty of risk, and thats why i dont like it. -Seth
If the frog couldn't take the toxins, it would've spit the frog out. Nothing, but I was certain it wouldn't harm the frog because they have essentially the same type of toxins. Captives don't need the toxin but I did want to be sure it was capable of using it. Even if its life span were shortened it is still longer than a wild frog's lifespan.

The benefit is learning more about the protein build up in the toxins. Everything is a risk , life is a risk, we don't do anything in life without a risk. The risk is natures balance.

I allowed the frog to eat the toad, I put the toad in the frog tank, if the frog wasn't able to take the toxin it probably would've spit the toad out. Captives don't need the toxin, I just wanted to prove they can use it.
 

limnologist

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I was really glad to find out that they don't feel pain, I always felt kind of bad savagely putting them on a hook or cutting them into a dozen pieces.
Yah I agree, scientists are wrong a lot, and things always change. Their conclusions may change.
But in the mean time I suppose I will trust them.



It does kind of seem like he is trying to get a big argument going (success ), but at the same time he also seems like he is just trying to advance his knowledge in limnology, he just isn't doing it the right way. I did the same thing a while ago to try and advance my knowledge of herpetology and wild amphibians, but in the wrong way. I now am doing it in a much better way, reading, a lot ( ever printed off a 36 page PDF? ). -Seth
I'm trying to get opinions, and see how people react to this sort of thing.
 

limnologist

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I wasn't going to post on this but then something came to me last night, why in the world would you feed them that. I mean I know there's stories about people in India injecting them selves with cobra venom and doing just fine, even growing an am amunity to it but y would you do that to a frog. There's no possible reason except being sadistic and getting kicks out of potently harming your frog. To me your not showing good husbandry skills. Not to be mean, but if you can't take care of them right then don't have one. Infact in the united states its actually concederd abuse and neglect of your animal. I think you really need to think this through before the law gets involved and you get a fine the USDA/fwcs/and azaa take you for a run and yes they do go after citizens too
I only did it because I was certain it would do no harm to the frog and because I need to know more about the toxins. I have 23 pacmans, 10 axolotls, a bearded dragon, three aquariums, 2 roach colonies, 2 worm colonies, thousands of meal and superworms, a dog and a cat. All are healthy and almost all have bred. They are my life. So tell me I have bad husbandry skills. The various large animal abuse control groups used to have the right idea, now, all they are is a group run by the government taking advantage of various pet keeping propagandas, public complaints from cranky citizens, and complaints from over zealous "do gooders". All they want is the money they can get from fining everyone.
 

frogmandan

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So they only want money. They make money by fining. They fine because you but a creature in danger. But possibly shortening its life. As to the husbandry thing that a zoological term used in the zoo field. You spent countless hours for years housing and caring for animals to get certified to care for them, unlike a prvite breeder/keeper.your regs are a hell a lot more lenyent I'm just giving you a heads up. You need to be carful. If the wrong person see this tread you could face hard times. I know they scope there sites I've been fined myself back in the day
 

limnologist

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So they only want money. They make money by fining. They fine because you but a creature in danger. But possibly shortening its life. As to the husbandry thing that a zoological term used in the zoo field. You spent countless hours for years housing and caring for animals to get certified to care for them, unlike a prvite breeder/keeper.your regs are a hell a lot more lenyent I'm just giving you a heads up. You need to be carful. If the wrong person see this tread you could face hard times. I know they scope there sites I've been fined myself back in the day
Thanks for the advice.

In the end, all I'm trying to do is advance our knowledge about herpes. Isn't that what the first hobbyists did?
 

slowfoot

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I have a feeling you don't understand the meaning of the word "science"
No, I have no idea what 'science' means :rolleyes:

I do, however, have a PhD in biology so I can tell you that touching your pet frog with a cut on your hand to see if it's using the toxins it got from eating your pet toad is not a good experiment. It's actually pretty difficult even for people with real labs and equipment and hundreds of replicates to determine where/how animals acquire or produce their toxins.

I know you have the right do anything you want with your pets (within reason) and I'm not trying to be a downer about people figuring stuff out at home. But please don't pretend that doing stupid stuff with your pets is contributing anything to our understanding of how toxins work.

And you're not going to get dinged by the humane society or anything like that because they don't really care about toads. So no need to worry, I guess. Carry on!
 

limnologist

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No, I have no idea what 'science' means :rolleyes:

I do, however, have a PhD in biology so I can tell you that touching your pet frog with a cut on your hand to see if it's using the toxins it got from eating your pet toad is not a good experiment. It's actually pretty difficult even for people with real labs and equipment and hundreds of replicates to determine where/how animals acquire or produce their toxins.

I know you have the right do anything you want with your pets (within reason) and I'm not trying to be a downer about people figuring stuff out at home. But please don't pretend that doing stupid stuff with your pets is contributing anything to our understanding of how toxins work.

And you're not going to get dinged by the humane society or anything like that because they don't really care about toads. So no need to worry, I guess. Carry on!
I know my frogs pretty well in that I never once had pain caused in any open wounds when I held them. I found it very surprising that it caused pain when I held it. Also, if your a PhD in Biology, you should know that when it comes to frogs, they constantly have toxins on their skin, so, I did not cause it to be defensive and use the toxin, the toxin was already present.

It dont think its stupid if im certain it wont harm the animal, I put months of research into this experiment. so far there have only been good results for the frog. Im doing this to learn, I don't know about anyone else, but, I want to understand how bufo toxins work and interact with other herps. maybe that will be my profession someday, which would mean it was really helpful for my career to start working experiments at this time.

curiousity is the essence of human nature.
 

slowfoot

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I'm not asking this as a trick question, but how old are you?

I get that you like your pets and take good care of them, but be honest: you didn't know it wouldn't hurt the frog. How could you? Pacman frogs will often eat first and ask questions later. And the toad did get hurt.
 

Redear

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limnologist, can you expand on your methods, controls, procedures for this experiment? Is it simply the cut finger test?

and...

Slowfoot, do we really need to know how old someone is? Where are you going with that?
 

slowfoot

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Slowfoot, do we really need to know how old someone is? Where are you going with that?
If he was actually interested in a science career I'd offer him some advice (if he wanted it) but my advice would be really different depending on whether he was 15 or 45.
 

limnologist

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I'm not asking this as a trick question, but how old are you?

I get that you like your pets and take good care of them, but be honest: you didn't know it wouldn't hurt the frog. How could you? Pacman frogs will often eat first and ask questions later. And the toad did get hurt.
22.

Of course I didn't, who could? I was fairly certain the frog wouldnt get hurt and I weighed the risk of danger against curiosity and curiosity won.
Cmon now, it was one out of the hundreds of feeder toads I have. It would've been fed to a snake either way :p
 

limnologist

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limnologist, can you expand on your methods, controls, procedures for this experiment? Is it simply the cut finger test?

and...

Slowfoot, do we really need to know how old someone is? Where are you going with that?
I kept my frog in a clean, empty cage (he never liked water dishes or hiding places), kept humidity at 80% and temp at around 80° F. He didn't eat anything for a week, I fed him an adult, male american toad. He didn't get sick or die and absolutely nothing changed except the fact that now, whenever I pick him up and hold him and happen to have a cut on my hand, it hurts like the dickens. That has never happened before with him or any other of my frogs until he ate that toad.
I still need to repeat the experiment though, and I also want to introduce the frog to a snake that seems to smell or taste the poison and see what happens.
The snake was offered multiple times various fish that were covered with toxins that I harvested (no harm to the toads BTW) and every time, he refused to go near them. Because he likes getting out of cage and eating my frogs, I thought that I would see if he will try to eat the frog I experimented with.
 

limnologist

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BTW everyone, thank you all for arguing with me. I really needed some other opinions and oppositions :) . I'm learning more every day thanks to all of you.
 

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Go for it limnologist. You obviously know whats what. A few things though.
Firstly, whether or not a creature feels pain should not affect the actions one takes against it. This single post could go on forever, but I won't bore you with any of it. The decision to cause harm to a living organism, plant or animal, should not hinge upon that creatures ability to feel pain. That being said, what limnologist has done is to call a 100% ego driven teenage fantasy an experiment. While this post cannot make me more angry, it has compelled me to draw a line in the sand. Don't be mad at him because he was causing another living being harm. Don't be mad at him because could possibly have killed every amphibian he talked about in his first post. Be mad at him because he had no right, scientific backing, or intellectual background to do such a thing (let alone say he arrived at any sort of concrete finding). Go to school, a lot, before you start feeding toxic animals to amphibians in the hope that they beneficially absorb some of the toxins. Or just stop airing your B.S in the hopes that you spark an argument and can say something smart you learned in your high school "philosophy" class.

By the way, any retort you may have about the extent of your education will be far outweighed by the sheer ignorance you have shown everyone who has read your post. Have a nice day ;)
 
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