Strange Tiger Sal Behaviour

[shorty]

Hey guys,

My tiger salamander was in the water dish, when I witness some weird behaviour. He was doing 360 flips around repetitively, belly side up, then back side up, belly side up, then back side up. He must've done this three or four times, and now is really still. Does any one know what this type of behaviour means? I've never seen it before. In the midst of the flipping, I noticed the cloaca region was slightly discoloured, more of a red, instead of it's normal skin colour. Sign of infection?

Also, I've attached two pictures, is a tiger sal's side supposed to look this wrinkly? It wasn't like this when I got a few weeks ago. I just have a bad feeling, so I thought I'd post and get your expert opinions =) Thanks.

 

[Jennewt]

Has it stayed wrinkly like that since you took the photos? It does look odd, but perhaps just temporary.

Sals will sometimes do some strange maneuvers with their body when they are shedding their skin. I've never seen them do 360 flips, but it's not unimaginable. Any odd behavior since then?

 

[shorty]

He hadn't moved in a couple hours, so I misted him directly hoping to get a response, nothing. So I touched his tail with the turkey baster, nothing. After more touching, and then poking, I've discovered he is dead. I suspect that I witnessed a heart attack, or his body going into shock before dying? I bought him 19 days ago, the pet store had a 14 day guarentee. Sigh.

 

[Mark]

How bizarre! It’s not the first time people have described spasms and sudden death in caudates. The behaviour would indicate the onset of something fast and uncomfortable. The reddening of the cloaca may suggest some sort of septicaemia before the attack. Did it show any signs of illness leading up to this? Was the photo taken after the incident? Could the water have be contaminated with pollutants? What were you feeding it?

 

[shorty]

Well, I've only had the little guy for 2 weeks, I was still waiting for him to settle in and let his personality show. He would hide in the cave I created with an upside down sandwich box, and stayed in there for the majority of time. I fed him a mix of crickets, butterworms and earthworms. I didn't see any signs of illness, he just didn't move much, but I thought that was because he's in a new environment and that's the nature of tigers. The picture was taken after the incident.

When I reached my hand in the enclosure at the petstore to inspect him, I felt heat in the environment, the water was warm. But he was responsive, all skin was in tact, nothing growing on him, etc. The employee said they've had them for about a month.

Not sure if the water would've had pollutants? I changed it two days ago, with treated aged tap water.

Also, when I discovered it was dead, I noticed it's hind toes were brownish red at the tips.

 

[salamandra]

my tiger salamanders get a red tint collour come up on the skin if they get strest and then it gose after they have calmed down and got used to the new setup could we see the hole setup please and in that picture it looks as if the tank is about 6 inches wide?????? that may just be how the picture was taken but anyway would we be able to see the setup so we can see if there is anything that is responsible for this and then we can help alot more

i house my tigers in a ALL pure eco earth setup with a cave ad fake plants and spray them 3 times a day and hand feed 2 times a day

and my ones are doing perfectly well?

will need pics of the setup to know for sure

 

[shorty]

Attached are pics of the setup. It's a 30 gallon long, which measures 36'' long by 12'' wide and 12'' tall. Substrate is coconut fiber, I usually mist once a day. Two hides, one in the box, one under log. Lots of room to burrow, substrate is about 5'' deep. The water dish is about 8'' long. Plants are golden pothos (Epipremnum aureum) and beaked moss (kindbergia oregana). I use the same set up with my fire salamander and red efts, and have had no problems since I got them (over a year ago)

 

[Mark]

Jake, I think you're getting confused by the sides of the water dish in the photo.

If the pet shop were keeping it in a heated environment for a month I think it’s likely the sal was sick when you got it, especially considering it would be wild caught and unaccustomed to indoor temps let alone heated indoor temps.

For an animal that could live for 20 years + in captivity I think a 14 day guarantee is a little tight. I’d complain – and if their enclosure is heated you certainly deserve a refund.

 

[Kaysie]

I agree. It was almost certainly already sick. Your setup is similar to my tiger setup, so I highly doubt it was something in the setup, unless you had some severe water issues. But I don't think even using untreated water would cause symptoms such as that.

 

[shorty]

The enclosure wasn't heated, but it had no ventilation at all. The enclosures next to it were probably heated as it had reptiles, the heat probably transfered through.

It was captive bred. I asked where they got it from, they said a breeder in Eastern Canada, and that they are not allowed to sell wild caught animals.

I don't think I can get a refund, as 14 days is their policy and I signed it, acknowledging that I've read and understand it.

I treat my water with the proper amounts of water conditioner, then I let it sit a minimum of 24 hours before it goes into any enclosure. I don't think it could've been a water issue as I used the same bottle of water for my other salamanders/newts and they're all still alive.

Thanks to all for trying to help me solve this mystery.

 

[Kaysie]

It's not captive bred. It may have been 'farm raised' (where they harvest the eggs en-masse and raise them), but it was not captive bred.

 

[shorty]

Really? So anytime a pet store says the animals are captive bred because they can't sell wild caught ones, it simply means they caught the eggs from the wild and captive raised them? What should I ask for before purchasing a caudate then? Everytime I ask about the breeders, they either know nothing, or they clam up and refuse to offer information. I guess it all makes sense now.

 

[Mark]

Well, that’s one more reason for a full refund. Tiger sals have been bred in outdoor containers in Europe in recent years but I doubt you bought one of those in Canada. I’d go back to the store, tell them the animal was sick when you bought it and that you’d also like proof that it was captive bred – the name/address of the breeder etc. You can be 100% certain they weren’t. If they clam up say you’ll report them. Hopefully they will think twice about stocking them again. Captive farming either amounts to someone with a breeding pool on their land or egg collection – either way they are wild caught animals.

 

[damien]

Maybe a weird question, but is it that hard to breed tigers? Since you are so sure they are wild caught.

There really should be an international law that forces shopkeepers to get a certificate to show that they know what they're doing etc.
Is it normal that you have to sign a 'contract' stating the 'warrenty' period? Sounds fishy to me, though.

 

[Mark]

Maybe a weird question, but is it that hard to breed tigers?

Yes. Indoors at any rate.

Many pet shops selling livestock will make the customer agree to the warranty period by signing terms of sale. You should have statutory rights however. If they aren’t captive bred they can’t sell them as such - irrelevant of it’s death.

 

[salamandra]

i see the setup is nice and very well done

 

[Kaysie]

I definitely think you deserve your money back. Even if there is only a 14 day guarantee, you signed an agreement with them under the false premise that they are captive bred, in which they are not. Therefore, THEY have violated the agreement by making false statements. I'm betting (by your description of their behavior) if you push a little, they'll cave.

 

[John]

To me it sounds like a reaction to a chemical it has encountered (i.e. poisoning), rather than the last step in a disease.

 

[shorty]

It did seem like a "sudden death." It didn't eat in the last week prior to the incident.

Anyway, I went to the pet store and they said they CANNOT give a refund because their computer won't let them if it's been over 14 days. I asked for breeder info, and they gave me two company names and told me to research because those two companies ship only to the pet store head office, they have no contact numbers or names. I honestly don't care about a refund, I really just want to trace where the animals came from.

I've tried to google both companies, but have had no luck. Am I allowed to post the names of the companies to see if any of you have heard of them? They're both located in Ontario, Canada. Can one of the moderators please let me know if I can post the company names? Thanks.

 

[ETH002]

The companies

That seems really odd that you cant seem to find any history on the companies that sold the pet stores the sals.. Let us know alittle about them when you do.