Subspecies in Cantabria

[rodrigo]

Hi, this may be a little weird question, but i guess some of you may know.
I go to Cantabria quite a lot, it´s my favourite place, and everytime i can i go for some herping.
I´ve only found three adult salamanders since i was a kid. Lots of larvae though...and L.helveticus, frogs...toads...
The problem is that i cannot identify the subspecies of the individuals i´ve found.
I´ve always thought they were fastuosa....but i doubt between fastuosa or bernardezi.
Can anyone tell me where the bernardezi population ends in cantabria?? and where fastuosa starts??
I wish i had pics of them...only got pics of a morph i found, but you can´t see much, since it´s just morphed. Also i thought about the possibility of them being hybrids. Is it known of them to interbreed?

 

[ingo]

Hello Rodrigo,

the problem with the salamandra- subspecies in cantabria is, that you can find both fastuosa and bernardezi there. From morphological appearance you sometimes can not tell the difference. In general, fastuosa are mostly slimer, but bigger in average; though it may be difficult to tell, if you have only a single animal. Sometimes a photograph can be helpful, but the differences are not always obvious, in some cases only a DNA-analysis can differ between fastuosa and bernardezi.

Greetings, Ingo

 

[rodrigo]

Ok...so i don´t really have a way to tell if the animals i find are one particular subspecies...
You see, there are bernardezis that are extremely easy, because the coloration has nothing to do with fastuosa....but i´ve seen photos of bernardezis that are exactly the same as the ones i found. But they look as fastuosa too....
anyway...if i happen to find more this spring i´ll take pics, maybe you will be able to help me identify them with pics.
thanks a lot.

 

[wouter]

The border is more or less in Saja Besaya I thought, near Ucieda. S. s. fastuosa occurs there, according to some scientific articles. I looked there last year, but I couldn't find any Salamandra

Further west, it's all said to be S. s. bernardezi.

The article cited is very interesting, and can be found on the net;


Garcia-Paris, M., M. Alcobendas, D. Buckely & D.B. Wake (2003): Dispersal of viviparity across contact zones in Iberian populations of Fire Salamanders (Salamandra) inferred from discordance of genetic and morphological traits.Evolution, 57(1):129–143.

 

[rodrigo]

I know Garcia-Paris...i´ll look for that article right now. Actually one of the animals i found was in Ucieda, the other two were in a very close village. Thanks a lot man.

 

[ingo]

Hello Rodrigo,
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Quoting Rodrigo Palacios on Monday 29 January 2007 - 12:22 (#POST119360):</font>

You see, there are bernardezis that are extremely easy, because the coloration has nothing to do with fastuosa....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
This sounds to me more like the subspecies lately described by Köhler & Steinfartz as Salamandra s. alfredschmidti
(Köhler&Steinfartz: "A new subspecies of the fire salamander, Salamandra salamandra (Linnaeus, 1758) from the Tendi valley, Asturias, Spain.-Salamandra, Rheinbach, 42 (1):13-20)...
- or can you describe the coloration more exactly?

 

[kamil]

Hi,

this are specimen found near Ucieda in 2006

Male:

Female:

Larvae:

 

[rubén]

Hello Rodrigo

As you surely know, the S. s. fastuosa population from Ucieda are partially viviparous; then, there are red individuals frequently, and the dorsal pattern is characterized by the perfect yellow bands, rather different than fastuosa.

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/49376.html?1152896799

In my opinion the western limit of fastuosa reach the beech forest level and the subalpine grasslands of Puerto de San Glorio/Puerto de Pandetrave ( Picos de Europa ) and, after talking with Mario García París and Miguel Lizana, they confirmed what I thought.
Then, individuals from Puerto de Palombera are quite smaller, and descending to the southern slopes of the cantabrian mountains, where the mediterranean influence grows ( in Burgos ) starts the overlap with bejarae

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/985/48118.html

If you have not the chance of make a mitocondrial study, biogeography use to be a good enquire way...

 

[rubén]

Hi Kamil

Nice to see you around here again!

 

[wouter]

Very strange animals Kamil, those from Ucieda... The head looks like bernaderzi, but the body shape like fastuosa!

 

[rodrigo]

Wow thanks for all the replies.
Ingo: The coloration i was talking about is brown or very difussed yellow. I thought that was a variation of bernardezi.

I agree with you Wouter...that´s what confuses me...the body coloration looked like fastuosa in all of them...but the head changed a lot and looked more like the bernardezis i´ve seen.

Kamil, so those (wonderful btw) individuals are fastuosa???? I´d say the male is...but still the head makes me doubt.

Thanks for the info Rubén. I think you might know, so i loose nothing for asking...which are the differences between the close populations of fastuosa and bernardezi? the stripes not being perfect (for example)??

I´m sorry if i´m insistent....but i´m really curious about this...Ucieda is probably my favourite place in the world hehe..and the more i know the better.

 

[rubén]

In general, S. s. fastuosa have regular and delimited yellow stripes, with a thin/streamlined aspect... but this is not a "law".

On the other hand, we cannot estimate the existence of a genetic transition for both subspecies. Overlap areas are not studied for the moment, but if exist, obviously must be on the western limit that I mentioned. I think that find natural hybrids is difficult in fastuosa/bernardezi due to the fact that mountains of 2.600 m. separates Asturias and Cantabria. Of course, valleys are routes of sporadic penetration... but you can be sure that Ucieda fastuosas are 100 % fastuosas.

If you are interested, send me a private message ( I prefer not to give exact locations ). I visit that area ( and others ) with my reflex-camera from many years...

But don't take care about the colour. I have seen recently populations of T. marmoratus 90% green, with white/redish belly and only some black dorsal dots; and are marmoratus after all, not pygmaeus!

 

[rodrigo]

Thank you so much. I sent you a message but the previous ones i sent didn´t arrive so i don´t think you´ll get it.
It would be interesting to see those marms(the greener the better).

Also...one last thing...(yeah i know i´m annoying), if you happened to have a pic of a bernardezi of the fastuosa/bernardezi area, it would be great.