Too old to boogey [hyla veriscolor]

By your logic black people should get skin cancer more frequently than white people. The inverse is the case. The dark pigment stands between the UV light and the sensitive tissue underneath. Dark things get warm because they absorb light radiation, they don't let it through.

All this talk about your tadpole deformities is just unfounded guess work. The best we can do is offer intelligent guesses (contradictory perhaps) but without a scientific examination of the tadpoles, the conditions in which they were kept and any other contributory factors.
 
I have to disagree here.
The frog lab I work in provides UVB light to our tadpoles and adult frogs- without it metamorphed frogs can have limb and vertebrae deformities and adults develop spinal problems. Melanin in skin (which isn't really the same thing as camouflage in tads) depends on exposure to UV light, but it doesn't block absorption.
 
katebutton said:
I have to disagree here.
The frog lab I work in provides UVB light to our tadpoles and adult frogs- without it metamorphed frogs can have limb and vertebrae deformities and adults develop spinal problems. Melanin in skin (which isn't really the same thing as camouflage in tads) depends on exposure to UV light, but it doesn't block absorption.
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References please. Evidence not anecdotes.
 
I think the methods section of quite a few of H. Carl Gerhardt's papers should have this information. I too will soon have a university level biology degree and my boss (Dr. Gerhardt) and the graduate students I work with know what they're talking about. He is an expert on Hyla versicolor (he's worked with this particular species for over 30 years) and quite a few other frog species.
ARC, the amphibian research center, also has quite a few mentions of the importance of UV light.
Just because you don't know it doesn't mean it isn't right. Where are the references saying that UV light is completely null and void in amphibian care?
 
As a scientist you should know that if you're going to make broad sweeping statements without caveats you have to give some references, not a vague idea. Hobbyists are easier to forgive in this regard. I am not disagreeing with your points - I simply want to see a peer-reviewed paper with this data in it. This is a very interesting topic (UV requirements of amphibians) and your boss and his peers ought to be publishing on it if they can prove these findings. If they have published on it, I know many of us want to read those papers so some citations would be nice. Even if your boss is the gray treefrog science god, statements like this are still little more than hearsay without solid data to prove them, preferably in published form. With solid data your boss could publish several papers entirely on this topic.

My own anecdote - I have just raised over 100 Hyla versicolor, captive bred by me, from eggs. They were raised in very dim conditions, and with no UV light. They are now healthy eating machine froglets about 1 month post metamorphosis, growing like weeds, still in dim conditions with no UV light. Not a single deformity or problem. And I did not lose a single one of the eggs I kept, from egg to month old froglet.
 
John said:
You are trying to tell me that a nocturnal animal needs UV light. Right.
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We haven't learned everything there is to know about amphibians. One thing people often forget in this hobby is that we should try our best to recreate nature in a glass box. Anything that would get sunlight in the wild should be exposed to UV in captivity as well. Sunlight works in mysterious ways.
John said:
Aside from the fact that you would have discovered something that has escaped science all these years,
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I think it's unreasonable to rule out the possibility that a hobbiest may have discovered something. I know a few hobbiests out there who observe newts more than the scientists that get payed to do it, sooner or later hobbiests bound to make discoveries, whether the scientists want to admit it or not;)
 
Jake said:
I think it's unreasonable to rule out the possibility that a hobbiest may have discovered something. I know a few hobbiests out there who observe newts more than the scientists that get payed to do it, sooner or later hobbiests bound to make discoveries, whether the scientists want to admit it or not;)
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You are right but when someone marks him or herself as a scientist then it is reasonable to hold he or she to it - that's why I'd like some citations from Kate. As I indicated earlier, this is not a requirement of hobbyists but I really would rather minimise the "supposing" side of this guessing game we have going here.
 
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John said:
As a scientist you should know that if you're going to make broad sweeping statements without caveats you have to give some references, not a vague idea. Hobbyists are easier to forgive in this regard. I am not disagreeing with your points - I simply want to see a peer-reviewed paper with this data in it.
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We've been in disagreement for the entirety of this thread. The only reason I posted in the first place is you were telling someone they were downright wrong in a very condescending way (Something along the lines of "You're telling me a nocturnal animal needs UV light. Right."), and I disagreed with you. I think you've made quite a few broad sweeping statements, and there are no references given. I understand why you expect what you do from me, but why can't I expect the same from you? I'll work on finding my references as soon as I have time to devote to that.
 
I just gave you a thread full of references on this topic, including a PDF from me if you take a look.

Addendum: If I seemed condescending then I apologise. The problem is that people jump to conclusions based on little or no evidence (mostly the latter in this thread). These conclusions are then left on the internet so that we can misinform future readers and googlers. I am very dismissive of unfounded conclusions.
 
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John said:
I just gave you a thread full of references on this topic, including a PDF from me if you take a look.

Addendum: If I seemed condescending them I apologise. The problem is that people jump to conclusions based on little or no evidence (mostly the latter in this thread). These conclusions are then left on the internet so that we can misinform future readers and googlers. I am very dismissive of unfounded conclusions.
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First of all no falling out guys and gals it is important to let people know when you make a complete hash of it to stop it recurring again, REMEMBER A MAN WHO HAS NEVER MADE A MISTAKE NEVER MADE ANYTHING right the easiest solution to this is I will rear under U/V light and see how I go on . The point is it never really recommends U/V in the books as a lot describe how to keep them but then state no record of captive breeding. But one thing we can all agree on is you don't need a bl***y rain chamber to do it :rolleyes:
HAVEFUN CHEERS
 
John said:
My own anecdote - I have just raised over 100 Hyla versicolor, captive bred by me, from eggs. They were raised in very dim conditions, and with no UV light. They are now healthy eating machine froglets about 1 month post metamorphosis, growing like weeds, still in dim conditions with no UV light. Not a single deformity or problem. And I did not lose a single one of the eggs I kept, from egg to month old froglet.
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Sorry I had to do this in two bits but had to nip out. Right earlier in the thread I noted the first time my female bred I was very successful just like you! However as I have noticed the longer she has been in captivity the less successful i am at rearing these frogs. Yours were caught by you this year when ready to breed,so basically you ain't got a clue as to the frequency and what they fed on prior to you capturing them or how long exactly they were in hibernation, but you can ref papers by Professor Plod and his cohorts for their opinions and scientific evidence as to diet and hibernation requirements all you like but try it again in 5 years with the same two frogs without any UV and see what happens, incidentally my group of 15 adults all congregate around the UV light i use (The type I use it for my tortoise) for most of the day i know predation is nil as they are in a viv ,but they do like UV!!
HAVE FUN CHEERS
 
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katebutton said:
I have to disagree here.
The frog lab I work in provides UVB light to our tadpoles and adult frogs- without it metamorphed frogs can have limb and vertebrae deformities and adults develop spinal problems. Melanin in skin (which isn't really the same thing as camouflage in tads) depends on exposure to UV light, but it doesn't block absorption.
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Yo what type of UVB do you recommend I'll give it a go next year as there are a few on the market.
HAVE FUN CHEERS
Good luck with the degree :frog:
 
vincent said:
incidentally my group of 15 adults all congregate around the UV light i use (The type I use it for my tortoise) for most of the day i know predation is nil as they are in a viv ,but they do like UV!!
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I think your conclusions are very unfounded Vincent. You can believe what you like, you are of course welcome to do so. You might even be right, but you have almost no evidence to make those conclusions. You don't know why they are near the UV light . It could be simply due to the warmth or perhaps they think they can escape where the light is coming in. Do you even know if they can see UV light? You sure can't - you are seeing overflow into the visible region of the light spectrum.

The only point you've made that has any basis in fact is that I don't know what will happen if I try to breed my animals in 5 years. But neither do you.
 
John said:
I think your conclusions are very unfounded Vincent. You can believe what you like, you are of course welcome to do so. You might even be right, but you have almost no evidence to make those conclusions. You don't know why they are near the UV light . It could be simply due to the warmth or perhaps they think they can escape where the light is coming in. Do you even know if they can see UV light? You sure can't - you are seeing overflow into the visible region of the light spectrum.

The only point you've made that has any basis in fact is that I don't know what will happen if I try to breed my animals in 5 years. But neither do you.
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You can only give it a try and see if it works now that's fairly scientific, and if you like you can write everything down, to compare with previous results.The idea of these forums is for people who enjoy a hobby to share info. THIS WORKS FOR ME TRY IT ,IS BETTER THAN MINE ARE DYING There are a lot of intelligent people out there who have not been to University, hell some can.t even spell it ,but they are willing to give various ideas ago on the simple face value it has worked for someone at some stage. Science is all about trying something different to reach a acceptable conclusion:happy: the animals surviving is a good start.
HAVE FUN CHEERS
 
You are correct. I regret bringing up the science business because I was simply trying to point out that we need something firmer than guesswork. As I stated before, presenting ideas as fact leaves a dangerous legacy for anyone surfing in from the web and believing these guesses are facts.
 
John said:
You are correct. I regret bringing up the science business because I was simply trying to point out that we need something firmer than guesswork. As I stated before, presenting ideas as fact leaves a dangerous legacy for anyone surfing in from the web and believing these guesses are facts.
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I agree ,there is nothing worse than giving something a go and finding out it is complete tosh,but I rang a few people [not on the net] now one of them has had repeated success breeding HYLA VERISCOLOR and H/ JAPONICA over a period of many years in his greenhouse . He states that he hasn't had many deformities at all and uses maggots to produce flies[ITS CHEAPER]. There is an article in a magazine I am at present reading , which states that wild caught insects are nutritionally superior to commercially raised insects and states that bran which crickets are fed on contains phytic acid that hinders the uptake of calcium through the intestinal wall, and stresses the importance of gut loading using leafy greens:eek: So what we can safely say is you don't need a rain chamber to get them to breed Some people have had good results using U/V over the tadpoles and young tree frogs and finally the importance of gut loading your insects and not dropping them straight in the viv the minute you get home , and I do not think we are leading them astray :happy:
Have fun Cheers
 
I was looking up info on Barking Treefrogs and I came across this paragraph on UV light with treefrogs (it's from an article about Barking Treefrogs and Gray Treefrogs by Frank Indiviglio):

Frank Indiviglio said:
A Caution Concerning Light

I have noticed corneal opacities in green and gray treefrogs that consistently perch directly below even low-level UVB output bulbs. To be on the safe side, keep track of your frogs' perching habits. Most tend to choose the same spot day after day, and it is usually an easy matter to fashion a shield (i.e. an artificial plant) between the frog and the bulb.
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John said:
I was looking up info on Barking Treefrogs and I came across this paragraph on UV light with treefrogs (it's from an article about Barking Treefrogs and Gray Treefrogs by Frank Indiviglio):
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Right thanks for that, I have now got 15 no deformities at all Greys' . To be on the safe side I have kept them outside in a large petpal. The sun penetrates the mesh lid and the small frogs can be seen sitting on the leaves that are receiving direct sun. Now whether they are directly or indirectly they are receiving U/V. Touch wood none have died and I'm using foliage sweepings every day. All I can do is try with the U/V and report the results. We can both draw our own conclusions from the results[providing I get them to spawn]:rolleyes: But we will have to wait till next year now
 
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