Tylototritons

[achaochun3]

Hi just part of my collection =]

 

[Bellabelloo]

You could you tell me what types they are please .

 

[mr cyclone]

There are 3 Shanjing, 2 Kweichowensis,1 Taliangensis,and 1 Wenxianensis,I Believe
I have heard of people keeping Kweichow and Wenxianensis in the same setup as their Shanjing with absolutely no problems,almost like ( or how i would compare to keeping crested,palmate and smooth together) Although I am really not convinced about mixing species.The breeder who told me said he kept them together for yearrs with no problems,and he knows his stuff.

 

[eljorgo]

You could you tell me what types they are please .

T. cf. kweichowensis (1 individual)
T. kweichowensis (1 individual)
T. shanjing (3 individuals)
T. wenxianensis(1 individual)
T. taliangensis (1 individual)

Cheers,

 

[Azhael]

i would compare to keeping crested,palmate and smooth together

I wouldn´t say this is a problem-free combination unless you don´t mind the Lissotriton being supper for the Triturus, or managing to hybridize together...
This works in nature, but it doesn´t in the very limited constrains of captivity.

 

[kay]

T. cf. kweichowensis (1 individual)
T. kweichowensis (1 individual)
T. shanjing (3 individuals)
T. wenxianensis(1 individual)
T. taliangensis (1 individual)

Cheers,

Hi! I'm not very good at species identification. Do you mind explaining the difference between T.cf. Kweichowenis and T. Kweichowenis? Thank you

 

[Azhael]

T.cf.kweichowensis is the name given to animals that look a lot like T.kweichowensis, but have some characteristics which are not consistent. When the "cf", which is an abreviation for "confer", is used in a binomial, it denotes that the animal is closest to "x" species, but the identification is not confirmed. It´s an aproximation.
In the case of this newts, you can see that T.kweichowensis has fused dorsal spots, forming two continuous lines. T.cf.kweichowensis, on the other hand, although remarkably similar, has unfused spots. the reason why this aproximation is used, is because although these newts appear frequently in the pet-trade, very little is known about them in the wild, and we don´t know if they are simply a geographical variant of kweichowensis, or a full species on its own right. Until such time as reliable data is available, it´s useful to use the T.cf.kweichowensis name for these newts to separate them from known T.kweichowensis. You can find more (and better) info about this using the search function. I have a muddy memory and tend to get things wrong with this genus.

 

[mr cyclone]

Exactly Taxonomy gone mad!, Maris piper potato,is a potato.Jimmy paterson down the road has ginger hair ,Dave Kewley to the left has brown hair.That's just my opinion though.
I think Kweichow is kweichow but slightly different from other region's have already seen the apparent confucion with the Shanjing,light,dark medium Verrucoses variant???!!,ALTHOUGH!!... I've only ever come across dark variant verrucoses ,othere variant's to me are just either lighter of the dark colour or shanjing tha like to swim more than their meant to.

 

[FrogEyes]

Rodrigo's synopsis is accurate.

The comparison with T.shanjing is only half-accurate. Orange head, legs, tail, warts, and dorsal stripe is T.shanjing, regardless of shade or background color. The species is known to vary across its range, and its range extends into Thailand, probably through Myanmar and Laos. Similar animals with black limbs are isolated in northeastern Thailand and likely Laos, and are likely a new species. I refer to these as T.cf.shanjing

T.verrucosus is brown. End of story. T.verrucosus does not occur in Thailand, nor anywhere else east of Myanmar and Yunnan - specimens with orange are T.shanjing, not T.verrucosus. "Shanjing-like verrucosus" are T.shanjing.

T.kweichowensis has black limbs and head, and USUALLY has fused squarish warts which form stripes.

T.cf.kweichowensis has the black limbs and head, but USUALLY has distinct warts which do not form stripes. This species is reportedly isolated in SE Yunnan, far from the range of T.kweichowensis in NE Yunnan, Guizhou, and a pocket in Guangxi. It occurs much closer to T.shanjing.

 

[kay]

Thank you Rodrigo and Frogeyes for you responses. It has helped greatly for my understanding of the species I currently have. From both your descriptions, it appears that my two animals are T.cf.Kweichowenis.

Thanks again to the both of you. Cheers,
Kay.

 

[FrogEyes]

Unless you made a special order, that's pretty much all that's been in the general market in North America for several years.

There have been some CB T.verrucosus, and a limited number of WC T.taliangensis, T.shanjing, T.verrucosus, but few people have had retail access to the these. T.cf.kweichowensis has been distributed wholesale and retail by the hundreds or thousands.

I'm working on obtaining some of the less-seen species now, including hopefully T.broadoridgus, T.dabienicus, and T.sp.Huangshan.

 

[TylototritonGuy]

Hi just part of my collection =]

3 T.shanjing
1 T.taliangensis
1 T.kweichowensis
1 T.cf.kweichowensis
1 T.wenxianensis

One of the Kweichowensis is a True one due to the fact it has continuous orange stripe unlike the clear Cf.kweichowensis you can see in the top left hand corner.

 

[TylototritonGuy]

There have been some CB T.verrucosus, and a limited number of WC T.taliangensis, T.shanjing, T.verrucosus, but few people have had retail access to the these. T.cf.kweichowensis has been distributed wholesale and retail by the hundreds or thousands.
QUOTE]

Not true for the UK, there seems to be a continual steady flow of those species in the UK at the moment, especially a large number of T.verrucosus and T.shanjing have been bred lately.

 

[freves]

I am not much of an artsy type but that is a good pic. Frogeyes, I would be curious to know about your success in obtaining those species.
Chip

 

[mr cyclone]

Rodrigo's synopsis is accurate.

The comparison with T.shanjing is only half-accurate. Orange head, legs, tail, warts, and dorsal stripe is T.shanjing, regardless of shade or background color. The species is known to vary across its range, and its range extends into Thailand, probably through Myanmar and Laos. Similar animals with black limbs are isolated in northeastern Thailand and likely Laos, and are likely a new species. I refer to these as T.cf.shanjing

T.verrucosus is brown. End of story. T.verrucosus does not occur in Thailand, nor anywhere else east of Myanmar and Yunnan - specimens with orange are T.shanjing, not T.verrucosus. "Shanjing-like verrucosus" are T.shanjing.

.Frog eyes you seem to know your stuff and i enjoy reading your informative reports on Tylototriton ,although I'm slightly confused as in Caudata culture there seems to be a care sheet on Tylototriton verrucoses and an article on Tylototriton verrucose occuring in Chang mai ,Thailand.
This article makes me slightly sceptical on your hypothesis ,I'm sorry but I believe Shanjing and Verrucoses and all other Tylototriton Information seems to be limited or at least underfunded and incorrect,look at pictures of wenxianensis and asperimus can anyone tell the difference?
Our asperimus specimens have only been diagnosed as of aquiring 3 wenxianensis,so where and who has the relevant information?
Or is most of the information or photographs of wrong accounts?
I believe there is'nt a straight forward answer untill more study is done and all this c.f kweichow or c.f anything is a variational or regional difference
I would welcome more comments/criticism and information as there doesnt seem to be enough...Unless there's a book or two i've over looked?
regards

 

[mr cyclone]

achaochun3

You or someone you know Will have the best information on the newts that you keep,can you please provide myself and the other forum members with some information or/and pictures of your terrariums for your newts?
what temperature?
where they are from?
what kind and sex they are?
Any information you can provide us? We all love these animals in the rest of the world and have incorrect and insufficient details on most of the animals
thank you

 

[FrogEyes]

.Frog eyes you seem to know your stuff and i enjoy reading your informative reports on Tylototriton ,although I'm slightly confused as in Caudata culture there seems to be a care sheet on Tylototriton verrucoses and an article on Tylototriton verrucose occuring in Chang mai ,Thailand.

Those papers are wrong. Many Asian researchers have been slow to accept the existence of T.shanjing as a species distinct from T.verrucosus, and have thus treated them all as T.verrucosus still. Thai researchers call Thai animals T.verrucosus, even though two species are in Thailand, one matching the original description of T.shanjing, and neither matching the revised description of T.verrucosus. T.shanjing, T.cf.shanjing, and T.verrucosus are divided east-west by mountain ranges. Populations in Yunnan, eastern Myanmar, and Thailand are connected by valleys. It's not logical to expect T.verrucosus to cross mountain ridges while T.shanjing miraculously avoids following a valley southward just because there's a border in the way.

In the description of T.shanjing, the authors specifically limited T.shanjing to China and refered all non-Chinese animals to T.verrucosus. They had no reason to do so, apart from maybe a lack of specimens from south or east of Yunnan [in which case they stuck with the status quo for those countries, which was "verrucosus".

If you look at pictures or descriptions from Darjeeling, Nepal, or the paper describing T.shanjing, all specimens of T.verrucosus are solid brown, and other research shows that these animals are genetically closest relatives. One website in Thailand [a tourism site for Chiang Mai] is finally calling local animals T.shanjing, the only species whose description they match.

This article makes me slightly sceptical on your hypothesis ,I'm sorry but I believe Shanjing and Verrucoses and all other Tylototriton Information seems to be limited or at least underfunded and incorrect,

Not correct. I have provided links to many papers which are available for no charge. There is extensive genetic and morphological data for Tylototriton, though still much work to do. Refer to the taxonomy threads to find the relevant research. It's the hobby which is incorrect. The science is fairly up to date, and I follow the latter.

look at pictures of wenxianensis and asperimus can anyone tell the difference?

Our asperimus specimens have only been diagnosed as of aquiring 3 wenxianensis,so where and who has the relevant information?
Or is most of the information or photographs of wrong accounts?

I have specifically avoided dealing with Yaotriton here. One recent paper resolved the problems of identification by lumping most populations into one of two named species and a third unnamed one which is physically identical to T.asperrimus.

However, more extensive data are available which show that despite the lack of physical differences, there are a fair number of undescribed species masquerading as T.wenxianensis, T.hainanensis, and T.asperrimus. These species are as different from one another as those of subgenus Tylototriton...it's just that we can't tell by looking at them.

Bottom line - don't trust current identifications or identification methods. Without locality information, an animal that looks like T.notialis could be topotypic T.asperrimus, and an animal that looks like stereotypical T.asperrimus might be an undescribed relative of T.wenxianensis.

I believe there is'nt a straight forward answer untill more study is done

That's more or less the case, although the studies have largely already been done. What is lacking is descriptions which allow differentiation of all the unnamed species from the old concepts of named ones.

and all this c.f kweichow or c.f anything is a variational or regional difference

That's just not the case. That kind of regional variation very rarely occurs within a single species. When organisms from one region look consistantly different from their relatives in another region, it's usually because they are distinct species which have not interbred freely in millions of years. In subgenus Tylototriton, apart from the possibility of more than one brown species, all known forms are geographically and morphologically distinct. Including brown ones, I count seven.

I would welcome more comments/criticism and information as there doesnt seem to be enough...Unless there's a book or two i've over looked?

regards

See the papers and associated comments in the taxonomy threads, and review the original description of T.shanjing. I believe I also posted a couple of papers in this section, regarding geographically distinct Thai animals.

 

[mr cyclone]

Thank you Frogeyes for that column it was very informative and beneficial,i appreciate it.
You've helped a great deal.Hope i haven't pissed you off too much lol
cheers