Kaiseri Poisoning Incident

[SludgeMunkey]

OK folks, bear with me here as I am really, really sick at the moment.

In between trips to empty my bucket, I'll key you in on what is going on.

My senior thesis is on (as some of you know/guessed/etc) Neurergus kaiseri, specifically the nature of the toxins they generate in their skin.


I have been collecting samples of their dermal secretions using a TAS and carefully learning how to prepare and process said samples. (Measure twice, cut once.) As I am new to this sort of thing, I have screwed up the first few samples.

So earlier, just after dinner, I decided to harvest a few more as I can use the lab all day tomorrow thanks to classes being out for the holiday.

Anyway I wear those poly gloves, like restaurants are supposed to use, when handling these guys. Given my personal experiences in the past with these critters, whatever the secrete is nasty stuff. Just a whiff of it can give one a headache for hours.


So, as I reached in to grab a specimen, I snagged my glove on a rock and tore it. No big deal I thought.


In addition to being a biochemist in training, I work with my hands. A lot.

Needless to say my hands are always covered with cuts, nicks, scrapes, and minor burns. Right where the glove tore is where I cut myself making microscope slides this morning.


DO NOT GET NEURERGUS KAISERI TOXIN IN A WOUND!

Right now I have no use of my right hand. The exposed area is swollen up. I am sweating, vomiting, and...umm..."volcanoing" from the other end (if you get my drift...). Pupils are dilated, heart rate is up. I am dizzy as all get out...and I have the mother of all headaches.


My wife noticed me staggering around and called poison control. In between bouts of vomiting, I laughed out loud.


"He got poisoned by a WHAT!?!?"

Now, imagine a journalist trying to explain to a poison control operator that her wannabe science geek husband is sick as a dog because of a rare species no one normal has ever heard of...

"Johnny, what is the poison?"

"Angelita, BWWWAAAAARRRRRRFFFFF, I...don't...know...yet..."

"Well they need to know."

"So do I. How do you think I got into this BWARRRRRRRRRRFFFFF mess?"


Anyway, you can imagine the conversation. It was hysterical, save for the abdominal cramps I am experiencing.

"They say they do'nt know what to do for you."

"No <double expletive deleted>, Angi. This is why I asked you to not bother calling them. I'll get through this and if I don't make sure my notes get to the right people."

"But I thought you were experimenting to find out what that stuff is."

"I am dear BWARRRRRRRRFFFF but I can't very well get results if it kills me first."

"It can KILL you!?!?!?"

"Sure, why not. I do not know of a single case of kaiseri poisoning other than my own. In other words, it will be an interesting result if it does kill me. Make sure they do an extra good tox screen and then include the results when you turn over my notes."

"You really are an <expletive deleted>. Why couldn't you be into something harmless, like rocks or poop?"


This is when I retreated back to my lair and decided to warn you all. They are brightly colored for a reason folks. It means "Don't mess with me or you will pay, dude."

The odds of you being exposed to the kind of dose I have at the moment is slim, but do not risk it...trust me on this one.

I have to go empty my bucket again...

 

[Willlis]

Wow, that sucks man. I've dealt with some accidental zooanthid toxin poisoning and that was no fun either. You realize that if you do die the news is going to spin it that you were licking the newts like people do toads right?

 

[Red Eft14]

I also have this species of newt and it's interisting to know more about them and how there toxins work.Feel better soon.

 

[EasternNewtLove]

-Note to self- Stay away from these badasses.

I hope you feel better that sounds utterly terrible. But you can write about a humans response to the toxins in your thesis now...

 

[Mark]

Goodness, that sounds awful. I always imagined kaiseri would be down in the low Triturus spectrum of TTX toxicity, being as they are so closely related. I will be more cautious when handling them.

Out of interest, what is the procedure for collecting toxic secretions?

 

[Azhael]

Wow, i hope you are feeling better by now. It sounds really bad.
Tetradotoxin is certainly nothing to subestimate :S I´m assuming that might be the culprit as it´s a salamandrid and the symptoms fit with what other species can cause. Such powerful toxins in such innocent looking animals....
In defense of the newts, they do go to extraordinary lengths to make it clear that they are toxic, hehe.
Despite your pain and suffering (which really sucks) this is a most excellent reminder to everybody that you should never, ever, allow any secretion from a salamandrid to get in contact with open wounds or mucoses. Even species with very low levels of toxicity can cause a very unpleasant experience. Those with higher toxicities are a threat specially for children, old people and adults with heart conditions. However, so as not to feed excessive paranoia, remember that contact with the skin is not dangerous.

Again, i hope you are feeling better, Johnny, and we are all looking forward to hearing about your results. I wonder what additional compounds make the kaiseri cocktail.


On a different note, i´ve heard of people being pierced by Pleurodeles waltl, which looks innocent enough, and apart from the numbness of the hand, the horrible headaches and the violent vomiting are no fun.

 

[Otterwoman]

Are you all saying that none of you as even gotten the least little bit high??

 

[Azhael]

From caudate toxins? No. I´ve manipulated 55 stressed fire salamanders in one seating, you could see the toxins everywhere and nothing happened whatsoever. Sure, the smell is far from nice, but i didn´t even get a rush in my toxin sodden hands and i supossedly have delicate skin.

 

[Otterwoman]

Humpf. I guess I'm in the wrong hobby.

 

[Azhael]

Humpf. I guess I'm in the wrong hobby.

Blasphemy!

 

[michael]

Speak to us. How do you feel today Johnny? I hope all turned out o.k.

 

[nwmnnaturalist]

Wow! Impressive effects indeed. Hope you feel better!

These risks are always part of our dedication to the natural sciences. It's hard to appreciate the design of these toxins when you're suffering from them, but sometimes we learn this stuff the hard way.

It's not just the intended effects of the toxins that these animals carry that can be dangerous. Allergic reactions can occur, varying from mild to absolutely lethal. It's the same with any compound from any group of animals. It's hard to know whether or not you're a target for these reactions until you have to suffer through it.

That is quite an acute 'evacuation' reaction that you're suffering from. Probably the same as ingesting the toxin and it being absorbed into the bloodstream via the intestines. I do hope you recover well from this. Just think that you can brag about this and how you can appreciate these evolutionary adaptations these critters have.

I tell people frequently that bright colors rarely lie. I wash my hands before and after handling any of my amphibians, including the A. tigrinum, and that toxin is fairly mild compared to your subject. Years and years ago I handled some A. laterale and carelessly pulled a few pine needles out of my mouth after falling. Within 30 seconds I had numbness that spread from the 'touch points' and ended up feeling like I just came home from the dentist. Numbness, tingling and awkward drooling lasted about a half-hour, even after rinsing my mouth out thoroughly. I had only handled a couple of individuals for this effect to occur. I was glad I didn't swallow anything, since I could have had some respiratory problems from it. It's easy sometimes to forget the beautiful colors that appeal to us are there for a reason, not just for our fancy.

 

[Dustlinger]

Were they multiple generation CB or wild collected specimens, because i wonder if there is a direct relation to toxic lvls and there environment and or diet based like there is with dart frogs.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

I'm still alive.

I admit it was a very, very long night and I wished many, many times I was dead.

I suspect part of the problem is that I am a very fair skinned red-head- common lawn fertilizers make me ill. The swelling has gone down, and my hand works again, but the cut is in ugly shape. The swelling made it worse. I had to resort to saline and methanol irrigation. I then irrigated my self with ethanol, in the form of double distilled, charred oak aged solution.


I did finally stop vomiting, but ended up with tunnel vision until a few hours ago. Still a bit shaky now, but this is probably more from lack of sleep than anything else. The dehydration was pretty severe, but that was nothing a few hours in the tub with a gallon of gatorade couldn't fix.
The stomach cramps were the worst part. Ever had fold-you-in-half type cramps? Me either, until last night. Thankfully, I do not have any teeth left to break from keeping my mouth shut instead of screaming.

The effects came and went in waves. I would be feeling better, things settle down and then WHAM ! right back to hell.

The only other time I have been this sick was due to a rattlesnake bite years ago, and this made snakebite fun...


I use the TAS method of collection. This involves a specially purpose built unit called a Transductal Amphibian Simulator. To make it simple it is basically a low power 5 volt contact taser.

It provides a very small short bandwidth electric shock and is pretty much the standard for amphibian toxin collection. Before anyone starts getting out a hammer and nails for my crucifixion, be advised I test it on my self prior to each use. The specimen gets a jolt which results in the desired defensive effect. The resulting secretions are then swabbed up with a small square of Kimwipe. The advantage to this method is that it does not require the old standard- skinning the specimen alive. After a sample is collected, I carefully observe the specimen for an hour just to make sure everything is alright. I only collect a sample once a month at most.

Once swabbed up, the toxins can be extracted with anhydrous methanol. The resulting samples can also either be stored in methanol and/or lypholized. There is also a method for prepping samples for storage/transport/testing in distilled water with acetic acid as a preservative. This is the part I haven't got right yet.


I too expected a low TTX range similar to the Triturus complex, however initial results are showing some very interesting bioactive peptides in addition. I have to get more extensive testing done and currently I am on a waiting list for two different labs (no respect for undergrads...).

I am also culturing bacteria from the skin. This is merely to determine if there is a symbiotic process going on like in Taricha. The possibility may exist as a small tissue sample from a deceased specimen showed that bacteria do live in the tiny nodules of this species dorsal side. However, I admit it was more about an intensive necropsy at the time given the rarity of freshly dead specimens for study.

Currently, I am on a "stop work safety shut down". Feel free to read that as the wife has threatened to prepare my skin for toxin analysis the old fashioned way. Also, There is tail fanning happening so I will not disturb them until after egg season is over...and we all know that is more important than empty threats from my feisty Hispanic chica.:rofl:

 

[SludgeMunkey]

Were they multiple generation CB or wild collected specimens, because i wonder if there is a direct relation to toxic lvls and there environment and or diet based like there is with dart frogs.

Currently, there is no difference noted between CB and LTC specimens toxicity-wise.

 

[Azhael]

Glad to see you survived the ordeal, Johnny Now you have a great story for a rainy day.
I had heard about the possibility of tetradotoxin not being a direct product of the newt´s metabolism, but a product of bacterial synthesis, like in certain octopuses (i think?), but had never heard it confirmed, so i find it very interesting to hear that bacteria have been found in Taricha.
Whatever the exact mechanism is, it´s certainly not like in dart frogs whose toxicity is entirely diet dependant. I haven´t heard of any info that even suggests that toxin production may be decreased in captivity.

Ever had fold-you-in-half type cramps?

Unfortunately, yes, more times than i care to remember :S I´ve had my share of being reduced to a pathetic sobbing mass on the floor.
Abdominal spasms and bile vomiting are no fun at all...

 

[Kaysie]

I TTXed myself one time with a Taricha. I was giving her injections for an abscess, and had some random cuts around my fingernails (like I always do). Didn't think nothing of it until I couldn't move my arm. It was much like the reaction I get to a tetanus shot; arm wouldn't move, but still had feeling. I had the worst case of 'arm went to sleep but now it's waking up' pins and needles in my entire life. I felt like I wanted to cut my arm off. It didn't cause vomiting, but I felt pretty bad overall.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

Aye, it is nasty stuff. I have been studying TTX and its Taricha counterpart in depth for a while now. The entire bacteriological symbiosis bit really intrigues me. One of these days I'll get more Taricha and study them for myself in depth.

The problem with caudate toxins is that not very much research has been done on it (relatively speaking). Everyone is into frogs it seems. As I slowly farm up other people's research, I find that currently, we know more about Tairchatox and Ambystomid peptides than any other caudate generated poison.

It looks like that every time someone does bother to examine a caudate toxin, they find a new species or two of TTX. I have a paper here somewhere that describes that Tarichatox is TTX6 and TTX 11. Later tonight I can dig through my Mendeley files and dig it out if anyone is interested. I have built quite the library of references over the last few months.


Forgive me if I get a bit sketchy on this topic, I am awfully worried that I'll get raided because someone will misunderstand my work and then panic when they realize I do most of it in my basement....at home...because of this I tend to leave out details when I discuss the subject. I really do not want to be accused of making bioweapons or running a drug lab at home. If I am going to get in trouble, it will be for something cool like a Killbot with chainsaws for fingers or a DIY hunter-killer drone in the garage. Hell, I'm not even doing anything groundbreaking here, I'm just a hillbilly that would rather find out for himself than trust scant papers written by other biased geeks like myself. :rofl:

My thesis isn't due for another 22 months, but as many of you know, when working with amphibians it is not something you can hurry along. Really I just hope this stuff will help me get into grad school or even a really cool "living in a tent studying critters" type internship.

Here is to hoping "survived severe newt poisoning/ reaction" without medical care is a useful bullet.

 

[michael]

Johnny. You are teetering somewhere between genius and dumb a--. I hope in the future you continue to lean more toward genius.

 

[SludgeMunkey]

Johnny. You are teetering somewhere between genius and dumb a--. I hope in the future you continue to lean more toward genius.

<Laughing aloud>


Story of my life. If I had a nickle for every time I heard that I could retire to Chile.

By the way, if anyone knows where I can buy PTFE test tube plugs, I would be forever grateful. I am having trouble getting any. The motor on my lathe is burned out, so I cant machine my own at the moment. Test tubes are much more cost effective than sample bottles as I can get 20 pyrex test tubes for for the cost of 4 PTFE lined cap sample bottles.