Herping Central France – Observations of Salamandra salamandra terrestris deposition sites. (Warning very pic heavy!)

sergé

New member
Joined
Nov 29, 2002
Messages
650
Reaction score
14
Points
0
Location
Aalst (Waalre), The Netherlands
Country
Netherlands
Display Name
Sergé Bogaerts
Back to the Rana larvae; larvae of Green frogs (Esculenta, lessonae, ridibunda) can hibernate. So that means they become very large and metamorphose in the second year. This is probably a larvae of Rana esculenta.

But also Alytes larvae can hibernate and grow large, but they look different.

By the way; a little bit more south lives a close friend of mine: who has a small ecological camping place, offers some rooms to hire and herpetological expeditions...he has natural hybrids of Triturus marmoratus x T. cristatus on his grounds...www.tigouleix.nl
 

tdimler

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
173
Reaction score
9
Points
0
Location
West Texas
Country
United States
Display Name
Travis Dimler
Great stuff and very informative!!!
 

vide

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
48
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
38
Location
Uppsala
Country
Sweden
Display Name
Vide Ohlin
Thanks Mark, for an awesome post!

I was particularly intrigued by the idea that premetamophic Salamandra larvae migrate between different aquatic habitats.

I think this ads a new dimension to there natural history. I can not remember seeing anything about this type of phenomenon in the literature and a quick search in the databases I have access to came up with nothing. Have anything been published on the matter? If anyone have further observations in support or opposition of the idea that salamander/newt larvae make temporary terrestrial excursions I for one would be very interested in hearing about them!

Cheers!

/Vide
 

Mark

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
3,259
Reaction score
50
Points
48
Location
Bristol
Country
United Kingdom
Well it’s just a theory. I don’t have any evidence to support it.

As you can see advanced larvae are found in very small puddles which would almost certainly evaporate during a dry period of more than a few days. Either they’re extremely lucky with the weather or they can re-locate if forced to. I placed larvae on the ground near puddles and they easily covered the 1ft (ish) distance back into the water. For animals inhabiting such temporary environments it would be a useful ability.

I too would be interested in other observations on this topic.
 

dario

New member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
27
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Rome,Italy
Country
Italy
Display Name
perfect
Tadpoles can be Pelodytes punctactus?
 

edbenn

New member
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Country
United Kingdom
Hi Mark

Brilliant post and pictures. I think the large tadpole is a Agile Frog Rana dalmatina. The Tadpoles of this species get very large and do over winter occasionally. Water Frog species Tadpoles are a different shape to the ones in your photos.

There is a brilliant guide to central european tadpoles here:

http://www.whose-tadpole.net/

I really recommend buying the guide its excellant.

I've got some photos of large Agile Frog tadpoles, I'll post them when I get time.

Cheers
 

Mark

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
3,259
Reaction score
50
Points
48
Location
Bristol
Country
United Kingdom
As way of an update, I’ve just returned from another visit to the same region and was able to re-visit a number of the deposition sites shown in this thread. By the end of July S. s. terrestris have morphed and left the pools. Lissotrion larvae in permanent pools were found in far greater numbers than in April/May. I suspect they time their eggs to avoid the hungry mouths of the S. s. terrestris who would undoubtedly feed on them. Because the summer is long, competing species can afford to avoid each other. All of the temporary pools/puddles had dried up and even some of the livestock pools I’d considered permanent had little or no water left. Their adaptability to a wide range of water bodies makes S. s. terrestris more successful than other species but timing of deposition is evidently a crucial survival factor for the larvae.

The tadpoles in this photo (not the giant ones) were quite well developed.

Then.


Now. – approx 4cm, snout to tail. Clearly some kind of Ranid.


Bombina had also bred since my last visit but sadly I didn’t have a container to photograph them in.
 

firesalamander

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Kansas
Country
United States
Display Name
Dylan
I was just wondering if you kept any of those larvae?
 

John

Founder
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
61
Points
48
Age
43
Location
USA
Country
Ireland
Display Name
John Clare
That would be highly illegal.
 

firesalamander

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Kansas
Country
United States
Display Name
Dylan
its its illegal? I thought that terrestris were the only kind that you could collect. That shows how much i know.
 

John

Founder
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
61
Points
48
Age
43
Location
USA
Country
Ireland
Display Name
John Clare
It is illegal under the Berne Convention and I believe French laws too. It doesn't stop guys from England going over on the ferry on a collection trip and then going back to England and selling them, but it is still illegal.
 

Mark

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
3,259
Reaction score
50
Points
48
Location
Bristol
Country
United Kingdom
I was just wondering if you kept any of those larvae?
No, that would be illegal. CB terrestris are readily available inexpensively in the UK. I've no desire to keep salamandra - it's far nicer to have the opportunity to regularly observe them doing well in the wild.
 

firesalamander

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Kansas
Country
United States
Display Name
Dylan
I had no Idea that was illegal. I know I sound clueless but I thought that it wasn't illegal capturing terrestris.
 

Azhael

Site Contributor
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
6,645
Reaction score
88
Points
0
Location
Burgos
Country
Spain
Display Name
Rodrigo
Just to add to the information:
All european caudates are protected(in fact most if not all amphibians and reptiles are). The only country that appears to allow capturing and even importing native caudates is Ukraine(and the local subespecies is S.s.salamandra there), although i´ve never seen it confirmed that it is in fact legal....it´s definitely done, though. In the rest of europe, they are protected, and it´s ilegal to catch them. Actually depending on areas it may be ilegal even to disturb them.
S.s.terrestris is most definitely protected in all of it´s range of distribution.
The situation of european caudates is very different from that in the US. We protect all of our animals because all of them are in trouble(europe is very densely populated and has been so for a long time, and thus, wild populations are very fragmented and isolated).

What John comments is the sad reality...people don´t care if they are protected and ilegal, they still smuggle them and import them. Disgusting....
 

firesalamander

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
Kansas
Country
United States
Display Name
Dylan
Thats terrible. I wish people would think before they take all of those animals from the wild.
 

benw

New member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
285
Reaction score
14
Points
0
Location
Dorset
Country
United Kingdom
Display Name
sonic
One simple fact is shops etc wil buy cheap good sized salamandra, in this day and age is all down to money, sad but an unfortunate fact, especially with the current economic climate, which doesnt bode well for european amphibians as well as reptiles
 

Ignatius Pienaa

New member
Joined
Feb 16, 2019
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Nîmes, France
Country
France
Wonderful post! Thank you, I have a weekend house in the Cevennes mostly for mushroom hunting, I keep Axolotls but now thanks to you guys, I’m going to be flipping logs too in May when the famous Morel or Morille mushrooms fruit.

Ciao!
Ignatius Pienaar :happy:
 

Jefferson

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
167
Reaction score
12
Points
18
Location
Southwest Missouri
Country
United States
This is a first-rate herping account with some beautiful critters of the anuran and caudate varities! Those Fire Salamanders and newts are absolutely gorgeous, and the common frog looks eerily reminiscent of the Wood Frogs (Rana sylvatica) we have here in the USA. Nice work!
 

Mark

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
3,259
Reaction score
50
Points
48
Location
Bristol
Country
United Kingdom
Most years I revisit the sites shown in this thread. Much has changed at many of them, sadly not for the better. Ditches and troughs drained or choked with vegetation, forestry felled and habitats disturbed by large machinery. Despite this the salamandra population appears to be healthy and I’m sure they find alternative water bodies to deposit their young.

There is no better feeling than walking in the forest and finding a beautiful fire salamander. The joy isn’t reciprocated. They look positively grumpy at the disturbance!


I've probably posted these images somewhere before but here are some adults found at the locations in this thread.









 
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • Sal22:
    I think my axie is dying, he’s never had any issues before, I’ve had him 3 years, today I noticed some fluffy looking stuff coming from his genital area so I took him out of his tank and did a full tank clean to make sure the water wasn’t infected as I thought it was fungus and then I noticed he had a cut on his belly which was only small about 5 hours ago and now it’s spread to all of his belly, what do I do I’m freaking out
    +1
    Unlike
  • Sal22:
    Update about my axie, unfortunately he has died over night, he looked as if he was bruised allover his belly, his mucus layer had also started to come off.
    +1
    Unlike
  • Ganaa:
    Anyone here from DMV?
    +1
    Unlike
  • Unlike
  • AlexisJG:
    Hi I have 2 4in juveniles (I’ve had them about 2 weeks and they are doing well I think they’ve grown a little already honestly) but I am supposed to go on a 5-6 day vacation in October about 3-4 months from now. I am wondering how I should go about their care when I am gone. I thought about putting them in separate (fairly big) containers with live plants and/or bubblers with a fan in the dark and either fridging them (my last plan) but I am hoping to to either have someone I trust come feed them and turkey baste waste out or just leave them out and clean the containers before we leave and have someone come check on them once or twice. Does any of this sound like a good or bad idea? I want the best for them. All help appreciated :)
    +1
    Unlike
  • Ganaa:
    @patrickstar116, do you still have your fire salamanders?
    +1
    Unlike
  • patrickstar116:
    @Ganaa, I do you may message me if you wish
    +1
    Unlike
  • HalfDrunkToast:
    hi.....
    +1
    Unlike
  • JDeslippe21:
    Hi, so I have 2 male axolotls and about an hour ago they were both perfectly fine and now only one of them has his tail curling up and his gills are slightly curled?? But other than that they’re both acting normally
    +1
    Unlike
  • Murk:
    Could be he's just excited, spooked or temporarily stressed, which could pass in a few hours. It could also be an indicator of other problems. Do you have any recent water parameters?
    +1
    Unlike
  • AlexisJG:
    Does anyone have any idea how to help with high ammonia levels? I have the API freshwater master kit and everything else’s test results were great besides ammonia. I did a 50% water change and I use API products including ammonia lock.
    +1
    Unlike
  • MuggleMiChu:
    Help! I got my first axolotl two days ago and they have stopped eating. They ate a few frozen blood worms the first day and haven’t eaten or been interested in food since. I feed them frozen blood worms and the tank is around 64 degrees. I do have a filter that moves sometimes and I noticed them swimming up to it, I have a new filter and a fan coming today or tomorrow. I leave the worms in the tank or a little bit before taking them out so I don’t know if they ate when I wasn’t looking. I know it takes a while for them to digest. Does anyone have any tips or knowledge they can share? The pet store I bought them from didn’t have gravel or sand in the tank so I’m not sure if theres an issue or if I’m just impatient. Thank you!
    +1
    Unlike
  • HalfDrunkToast:
    @MuggleMiChu, how big they are? also for substrate, i would not do gravel at all I would either do sand or none at all!
    +1
    Unlike
  • MuggleMiChu:
    They are about 2-3 inches long and I have them in a bare bottom tank
    +1
    Unlike
  • HalfDrunkToast:
    @MuggleMiChu I would say try live black/blood worms untell they are full or just turn there head away ( that's what mine do) if that does not work try to get some live brine shrimp and see if they eat that. baby axolotl prefer live food over frozen food as the frozen food is too cold for them or they can't eat it in one go( that's if you do the blocks) mine eat chopped up frozen thawed shrimp. as for them not eating from what I have experienced with my second axolotl, I got her when she was about an inch long and she ate every day, when they start getting 3-4 inches long they will gradually slow down there eating. and if you really want to do substrate I would do sand because if they do ingest a little bit it won't hurt them.
    +1
    Unlike
  • MuggleMiChu:
    Thank you so much for the information and advice! They are eating again, they ate a lot today. I think it might have been stress from the move or digesting old food, I also noticed they ate some of the food left in the tank (I removed the rest). I’m going to keep the tank bare bottom.
    +2
    Unlike
  • HalfDrunkToast:
    @MuggleMiChu,your so welcome im glad to be of help! and I'm glad that they are eating as well!
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    AidanD has left the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • MotherofAxolotls:
    Does anybody know where I can find a Starburst Wild type axolotl??
    +1
    Unlike
  • Alice28:
    Good morning everyone.
    +1
    Unlike
  • HalfDrunkToast:
    morning!
    +1
    Unlike
  • HalfDrunkToast:
    @MotherofAxolotls, i have like 3 but they aren't for sale T-T
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    MermaidMommy has left the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • Unlike
  • MotherofAxolotls:
    @HalfDrunkToast is their a price that could change your mind? 🙂
    +1
    Unlike
    MotherofAxolotls: @HalfDrunkToast is their a price that could change your mind? 🙂 +1
    Top