Tylo id

[apneadave]

Hi, I was offered these as Tylototriton asperrimus but I'm not convicted they are. Any ideas?!

 

[Shadow]

I would say they are. The spinal looks slightly wet which I noticed on Tylototriton asperrimus. Where did you get them from?

 

[Mark]

I'm no expert but I think there are only very subtle differences between T.asperrimus and T. wenxianensis, the only species those pictured could be confused with. Some consider wenxianensis a sub species of asperrimus.

In my opinion they look just like T.asperrimus. What makes you doubt it?

 

[Azhael]

Like Mark says, either T.wenxianensis or T.asperrimus, but also possibly T.hainanensis? (which would perhaps be my guess), but i don´t dare to propose which one as i honestly have no idea...
The "wet" look is not diagnostic, in fact it could be a very bad sign as it could be the early stages of "the shine" which sadly is very prevalent in Tylototriton imports.

 

[apneadave]

Thanks for the replies! I wasn't convinced it is asperrimus due to the lack or less defined knobbles compared to this individual taken near the type locality

CalPhotos: Tylototriton asperrimus; Black Knobby Newt

I did think there was a possibility that it was hainanensis. But any advice is much appreciated!

By the way what is "the shine"? How easy is it to treat? They where 3 seemed to be moving and feeding well but a 4th seemed to move little. This was a month ago when I saw them and they all seem fine. The guy offering them has had them for 4 months.

 

[obicat]

What is "the shine"?

 

[Jennewt]

What is "the shine"?

See:
Caudata Culture Articles - Illness Part 3
The "shine" just refers to abnormally shiny looking skin. It is a common symptom in Tylototriton that have been under serious stress. They can recover, but watch very closely for sores, which are a more serious symptom.

 

[FrogEyes]

Thanks for the replies! I wasn't convinced it is asperrimus due to the lack or less defined knobbles compared to this individual taken near the type locality

A good conclusion, except that the link provided is for an animal which is not from near the type locality of T.asperrimus (in southern Guizhou China), but rather from Ha Giang province, Vietnam. It may or may not be that species, and is geographically much closer to Cao Bang animals which are known to be an undescribed species currently called T.cf.vietnamensis.

My first thought is that at least the animal in the center looks an awful lot like T.taliangensis. Detailed photos of the head, shoulders, and front torso; and of the underside including cloaca and tail; would be helpful.

T.shanjing, T.cf.shanjing, T.kweichowensis, T.cf.kweichowensis, and T.notialis are all ruled out easily by coloration. All of these species have brightly pigmented costal warts.

T.verrucosus and T.vietnamensis are ruled out by their non-black dorsal colors and distinct costal warts [flattened in the latter].

T.asperrimus is ruled out by its prominent costal warts.

That leaves T.taliangensis, T.wenxianensis, T.dabienicus, T.hainanensis, and T.cf.vietnamensis.

T.cf.vietnamensis apparently has prominent costal warts and can be ruled out.

T.dabienicus is thus far only known from a protected forest region and is perhaps unlikely to be collected...so far. i wouldn't rule it out, but consider it unlikely.

T.hainanensis has distinct, flattened costal warts. T.wenxianensis [and T.dabienicus] have indistinct costal warts which may form a ridge. T.taliangensis is the only dorsally black species with red parotids, and has indistinct costal warts.

I think that reduces it T.wenxianensis and T.taliangensis, and it looks like you have both. The two species occur relatively closely together and stand a good chance of being shipped in mixed batches. The all-black ones might be T.hainanensis, but without more clear images of the warts, I suspect not.

I've updated my map, linked in the T.verrucosus ID thread. I've changed some Boehme et al records of T.vietnamensis, which are treated as T.cf.vietnamensis by Stuart et al. I've also deleted an incorrect locality of T.asperrimus [error in longitude was mine] and two records which were localities that now have more precise information and updated taxonomy. Those changes combined make all known taxa of Tylototriton geographically consistant. The previous map had overlapping ranges for vietnamensis, asperrimus, and cf. vietnamensis.

I am still seeking out documented localities for Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya, Assam, and Bhutan. There should be localities in Tibet, Bihar, and Bangladesh as well, but I know of no records. [all T.verrucosus] I am also lacking most records for China. Almost every province east of southern Gansu, Sichuan, and Yunnan should have records, though few do and I lack data on most of those.

 

[apneadave]

Hi FrogEyes, thanks for the excellent diagnosis! I'll certainly buy that they are either T.wenxianensis and/or T.taliangensis. I'm very tempted as I like the black tylototriotons. Cheers!

 

[eljorgo]

I strongly doubt of the presence of T. taliangensis in the picture. As for T.hainanensis strongly doubt due to proportions of the head/ dorsal ridge. The animal on the picture from amphibiaweb recalls of cf. vietnamensis as frogseyes said too...
From my POV, your animals might really be near to pure asperrimus... I've seen other hobbyists asperrimus and they all look identical between them and to yours as well.
I wouldn't bet on wenxianensis either due to their different knob and paratoid projections...

Final guess would be T. asperrimus.

 

[FrogEyes]

You could be right regarding T.taliangensis, though I remain uncertain either way.

T.wenxianensis is black with indistinct warts forming ridges, and with black cloacal lips. However, the cloacal lips may be yellow, and their may be orange coloration on the partotids and dorsal ridge. The former trait resembles T.asperrimus, the latter T.taliangensis.

T.asperrimus is NOT black, but rather dark gray to brown; has red cloacal lips, has distinct costal warts, and some of those warts may be orange-tipped! Thus, it may more closely resemble T.notialis!

T.hainanensis is black, has red cloacal lips, distinct costal warts, and some of those warts may be orange-tipped.

A big problem here is that most identities and most photos available are of animals of unknown or unreported origin, making it impossible to confirm a correct ID. Furthermore, identities may be based on outdated taxonomy or incorrect features. There's very little online that can be safely treated as correct and used to confirm identification. That said, the description of T.wenxianensis dabienicus is available free, and includes photos of that taxon, which mostly differs from the nominate form in body proportions, not color or morphology. There are also photos of type locality T.asperrimus, with updated description. The animals above resemble T.hainanensis, T.taliangensis [the one in the middle, somewhat], and T.wenxianensis more than T.asperrimus. In light of newer information on the last two, I'd still stick with T.wenxianensis.

That said, clear photos of the costal warts and of the cloacae would help. While there are exceptions in every trait, when you have multiple animals, you can reasonably expect the majority of them to comply with species standards: red cloaca would be T.hainanensis [or T.asperrimus], black [or yellow] cloaca would be T.wenxianensis.

Type locality asperrimus (see other accounts for updated information on variation):
Tylototriton asperrimus | Salamanders of China LifeDesk

 

[eljorgo]

Interesting Information... But how do you classify Tylototriton from Cao Bang province at Vietman then?

 

[FrogEyes]

Genetically tested Cao Bang specimens are an undescribed species related to T.hainanensis and T.notialis. Of course, there's every possibility that more than one species could occur in Cao Bang, and most localities have not been properly studied.