WC vs. CB Discussion

[Jan]

This discussion is so broad and encompasses so many variables that I find it is at times, circular. Some variables include: Commercial WC and sales vs. collection of WC by an individual hobbyist; species that are only available as WC vs. availability of species as captive bred; legal vs. illegal collections; capture and release vs. keeping; knowledge of husbandry vs. lack thereof; vulneralbe or threatened species vs. non-threatened, abundant species, etc. Depending on one’s perspective and paradigm within the variables, arguments can and do change.

For sake of discussion, what would opinions be on a knowledgeable individual hobbyist legally collecting a WC non-threatened species that is not available as CB and keeping those animals? As an example, here in the US, we could use Eastern Tigers – in many states fairly abundant, not protected, legal to collect and not available as CB and one of the easiest caudates to keep. For my $0.02, I have no issue with this scenario. With other scenarios, however, depending on the variables, I would be adamantly against them.

The issue of knowledge of husbandry is a non sequitur regardless if an individual purchases a CB animal or collects from the wild as in the above scenario. That is part of the utility of this forum – whether someone just purchased a CB axolotl or found a tiger sal and has no idea what to do, we can help them with the care. Certainly it would be preferential to have knowledge before delving into the hobby – but sometimes that doesn’t occur. I was certainly guilty of that 50 years ago when I found my first tiger.

 

[nate]

Depending on one’s perspective and paradigm within the variables, arguments can and do change.

'nuff said

 

[rust]

I'm not playing devil's advocate but I think that some wild collection by a hobbyist who does not intend to sell or "harvest" a healthy population of a non-threatened species should be permissible. I have done this once (my lesser siren) and I did so legally. I would liken such an instance to someone who fishes and takes the fish home (presumably to eat). Indeed, my siren was covered by a local fishing license.

John, I think the term you're looking for is "renewable resource".

Probably the vast majority of caudate keepers here in the US got started as youngsters picking up wild animals and losing them very quickly to various errors. But those with a true interest, a real desire to learn about them, will seek out the knowledge. I see it here on this site all the time. But way too many people on here are quick to attack, not even taking into consideration that they may be dealing an intellectual deathblow to a future Stebbins or Bishop. It's not hard to take the wind out of the sails of a kid.

Of course we can go back to the issue of where did the current captive produced populations come from? Wild caught. So if you buy an F3 or F4 animal are your hands clean? And if we're ever going to degrade the value of wild imports/exports we're going to have to expand the availability of CB species, and I do mean the number of species available, not quantity.

So I do encourage kids to pick up a sally and enjoy it. And I do occasionally collect wild animals for starter colonies to establish captive bred colonies. But most of the time I enjoy herps the way a birder enjoys birds, just by looking.

 

[pete]

John, I think the term you're looking for is "renewable resource".

Probably the vast majority of caudate keepers here in the US got started as youngsters picking up wild animals and losing them very quickly to various errors. But those with a true interest, a real desire to learn about them, will seek out the knowledge. I see it here on this site all the time. But way too many people on here are quick to attack, not even taking into consideration that they may be dealing an intellectual deathblow to a future Stebbins or Bishop. It's not hard to take the wind out of the sails of a kid.

Of course we can go back to the issue of where did the current captive produced populations come from? Wild caught. So if you buy an F3 or F4 animal are your hands clean? And if we're ever going to degrade the value of wild imports/exports we're going to have to expand the availability of CB species, and I do mean the number of species available, not quantity.

So I do encourage kids to pick up a sally and enjoy it. And I do occasionally collect wild animals for starter colonies to establish captive bred colonies. But most of the time I enjoy herps the way a birder enjoys birds, just by looking.

I agree with Rust on this one. I think this forum should be encouraging to curious children to go out and explore the caudate world, and we should be cautious about attacking someone who obtains a caudate or two from the wild. I know my very first caudate I found (10 yrs old maybe?) in the creek behind our house was "totally awesome". However, since I found it in the water, I assumed it was a fish. I watched it swim all night, but in the morning it had drowned. I may have been afraid to step in another creek if I read some of these comments about this issue on this forum.

I think it's more about responsible collecting (educate yourself about local species before you collect, don't destroy habitat, try not to bring disease, etc.) and avoiding massive collection of wild specimens for the pet trade. I think that if your caudate populations/habitats are so endangered that you are concerned about a few animals lost to personal collectors/explorers, then you have much bigger social and environmental problems that you need to address.

 

[Azhael]

I started the very same way, as i think most people do. It was due to a total lack of knowledge, about the animals, the laws, everything...they just looked incredibly fascinating, i was a kid and i wanted them. I would have been thankfull if someone had stopped me and told me about the situation and about the possibility of acquiring CB stock.(back then it would not have been eassy....)
I really don´t think there has been any attack to anyone...
If someone from europe catches a caudate and goes into a forum asking for information about them, i think it´s our obligation to inform that person that what he is doing is illegal, and should NOT be done.
If he´s american, and it´s legal, i still think it´s not out of place to inform that person about the pro´s and con´s of his actions...
And i really think, telling someone that there are better options(CB animals), which will probably make his life eassier, is not an attack.
After all, people come here looking for information about husbandry, feeding, breeding, etc....why not add the extra(also very important) information about the situation of caudates around the world and the many possibilities one has to choose from???
When i tell people to avoid collecting animals, or even buying WC ones, i´m not attacking the person, i´m "attacking" the situation, and trying to provide him with new possibilities to make his life easier, and so that person is able to choose.

I see the point about responsible collection, against massive comercial collection, and that´s ok....as far as it´s legal, bla bla bla, but i still think you can avoid that and simply choose one of the many species available as CB, which if you are a beginner, will benefit you.

 

[Mark]

It’s an interesting anthropological study. Those with the right to collect defend it and those without oppose.

The circumstances in the US and Europe are very different. Europe has been densely populated with humans for centuries, amphibian habitats are diminished, fragmented, fragile and polluted. There’s little wilderness left – countries without mountains or moors have none. The strict laws we have are there to protect what little remains.

The US land mass is vast and in the main lightly populated. I’ve flown over the states a number of times and on clear days it’s breathtaking to see so much uninhabited or uncultivated terrain. I’m not suggesting there aren’t pressures from humans - just not enough, in general, to justify such tight legislation. I hope that day never comes. The reality is that collection in the US by hobbyists or curious kids is unlikely to have any lasting impact on healthy populations. The pioneering American spirit still lives on, played out in their right to hunt, fish, bear arms etc (yes, hunting in some forms is illegal here too). These are big cultural differences which make discussions such as this less than black and white.

 

[spendday]

My problem is that people should not remove animals from there habitats if they dont know how to look after them, its common sense.

[FONT=&quot]I’m with marco on this one. I spend some of my free time on question/answer sites trying to beat back the number of bad responses. the number of people who ask questions like, "I've found a snakes/lizard/frog/salamander(often misidentified as a lizard)" how do I care for it are both staggering and dismaying.
Although I do not agree with WC animals I understand a number of species can only really be obtained this way (my tiger salamander is WC) and I if experienced keepers wish to collect from outside that’s there call.
But the number of people with no idea how to care for these animals going outside grabbing a few then wondering why there dead a few weeks later is stunning. I find it shocking people have such a tiny amount of common sense. If u don’t know what something is and don't know how to care for it leave it alone I mean how hard is it to get that message across.[/FONT]

 

[Jan]

[FONT=&quot]
But the number of people with no idea how to care for these animals going outside grabbing a few then wondering why there dead a few weeks later is stunning. I find it shocking people have such a tiny amount of common sense. If u don’t know what something is and don't know how to care for it leave it alone I mean how hard is it to get that message across.[/FONT]

How hard is it to get this message across? I would offer that it is awefully difficult to do so. Although I agree wholeheartedly with you on this, are you showing bias towards WC vs. CB animals? The heart of the matter in your arguement is lack of knowledge - this is ubiquitous with CB animals as well. Look at the myriad of CB animals that end up dead, discarded in shelters or released in non-native areas because of lack of knowledge - snakes, turtles, dogs, cats, parrots, hamsters, rabbits, chicks, the list goes on...and yes CB amphibians.

 

[spendday]

The heart of the matter in your arguement is lack of knowledge - this is ubiquitous with CB animals as well. Look at the myriad of CB animals that end up dead, discarded in shelters or released in non-native areas because of lack of knowledge - snakes, turtles, dogs, cats, parrots, hamsters, rabbits, chicks, the list goes on...and yes CB amphibians.

I agree that there are a worrying number of purchased animals that end up in a poor state or dead due to ignorance on the keeper part but at least there is some kind of forethought, u have to go into the pet shop, the species will be named (ergo easier to find information on), hopefully the store will offer some kind of information and supplies.

where some1 walking through the woods picks up a salamander takes it home sticks it in a fish bowl with some water they will likely assume that’s fine and have a "I mean come on salamanders like water right" kind of mentality. I know someone can just as easily walk into a pet store buy an salamander an stick it in a fish bowl but its harder to ignore the warning signs that your doing it wrong. also people tend to care more about things they paid for.

Sorry I struggle to put my points into words sometimes (because of a learning difficulty) so if u have any questions or want me to elaborate please ask

 

[Jan]

The pioneering American spirit still lives on, played out in their right to hunt, fish, bear arms etc (yes, hunting in some forms is illegal here too). These are big cultural differences which make discussions such as this less than black and white.

Mark, truly I love your characterization of the pioneering American spirit and the great wilderness and I'm sure it has much merit and bearing regarding the many species we have have here in the US. However, I for one do not hunt, fish or bear arms...but I do find tiger sals in heavily trafficked, densely populated urban areas where houses have a yard the size of a postage stamp and what little ground is available is planted, fertilized and sprayed with pesticides...with no vernal pools in sight. They must be somewhere - I just don't see them. My eldest tiger was found in this type of environment...perhaps wrongly but in many ways I felt I rescued him. He's had a pretty cushy life over the many, many years I have had him.

 

[Jan]

I agree that there are a worrying number of purchased animals that end up in a poor state or dead due to ignorance on the keeper part but at least there is some kind of forethought, u have to go into the pet shop, the species will be named (ergo easier to find information on), hopefully the store will offer some kind of information and supplies.

where some1 walking through the woods picks up a salamander takes it home sticks it in a fish bowl with some water they will likely assume that’s fine and have a "I mean come on salamanders like water right" kind of mentality. I know someone can just as easily walk into a pet store buy an salamander an stick it in a fish bowl but its harder to ignore the warning signs that your doing it wrong. also people tend to care more about things they paid for.

Sorry I struggle to put my points into words sometimes (because of a learning difficulty) so if u have any questions or want me to elaborate please ask

Spendday, if you are struggling to make your points, it is not apparent. Your points are clear, I however, do not agree with some of your premises.

"the species will be named (ergo easier to find information on)" Often not accurately especially with amphibians.

"hopefully the store will offer some kind of information and supplies" It is a rare find when pet stores give appropriate information....especially with caudates.

"people tend to care more about things they paid for" I disagree. We live in a disposable society. When the intrigue wears off, it (whatever it may be including an animal) can easily be ignored or discarded. I am of the opinion that people either care or they don't....they either have intellectual curiosity and want to provide for and understand an animal or they don't, they either can make a commitment to an animal or they can't - it has no bearing on if money was exchanged.

 

[spendday]

Spendday, if you are struggling to make your points, it is not apparent. Your points are clear, I however, do not agree with some of your premises.

thanks, I just put that in because sometime when writing what I’m thinking everything gets a bit confused and I’ve had issues during debates on other forums.

"the species will be named (ergo easier to find information on)" Often not accurately especially with amphibians.

I know in some cases species are mislabelled but I’ve always assumed cases are in the minority, although I could be wrong

"hopefully the store will offer some kind of information and supplies" It is a rare find when pet stores give appropriate information....especially with caudates.

it is my experience that store will generally try and "push" a set-up when buying a new animal, these set-up (while often not being the be all and end all) are generally adequate basic set-up and are probably better than what someone with no knowledge could come up with. Also when dealing with a human being there a higher possibility that the buyer (however lacking in sense) might say something like, "have you got any food" or "do I need anything else" or the store clerk may say something or some how little bits of information may be acquired or absorbed by the buyer. More than if someone picked up something they found in there garden.

"people tend to care more about things they paid for" I disagree. We live in a disposable society. When the intrigue wears off, it (whatever it may be including an animal) can easily be ignored or discarded. I am of the opinion that people either care or they don't....they either have intellectual curiosity and want to provide for and understand an animal or they don't, they either can make a commitment to an animal or they can't - it has no bearing on if money was exchanged.

you do have a point.

at the end of both scenarios I think there is a high chance of the owner of the shop brought newt have more knowledge than the wild collected newt

 

[Jan]

Spendday - our experiences,opinions and thus our paradigms differ. Great to have a forum in which to share our thoughts.

 

[spendday]

Spendday - our experiences,opinions and thus our paradigms differ. Great to have a forum in which to share our thoughts.

if everyone had the same experiences and opinions I would find these forums some what dull

 

[pete]

I started the very same way, as i think most people do. It was due to a total lack of knowledge, about the animals, the laws, everything...they just looked incredibly fascinating, i was a kid and i wanted them. I would have been thankfull if someone had stopped me and told me about the situation and about the possibility of acquiring CB stock.(back then it would not have been eassy....)
I really don´t think there has been any attack to anyone...
If someone from europe catches a caudate and goes into a forum asking for information about them, i think it´s our obligation to inform that person that what he is doing is illegal, and should NOT be done.
If he´s american, and it´s legal, i still think it´s not out of place to inform that person about the pro´s and con´s of his actions...
And i really think, telling someone that there are better options(CB animals), which will probably make his life eassier, is not an attack.
After all, people come here looking for information about husbandry, feeding, breeding, etc....why not add the extra(also very important) information about the situation of caudates around the world and the many possibilities one has to choose from???
When i tell people to avoid collecting animals, or even buying WC ones, i´m not attacking the person, i´m "attacking" the situation, and trying to provide him with new possibilities to make his life easier, and so that person is able to choose.

I see the point about responsible collection, against massive comercial collection, and that´s ok....as far as it´s legal, bla bla bla, but i still think you can avoid that and simply choose one of the many species available as CB, which if you are a beginner, will benefit you.

I think that purchasing a CB that you could have easily obtained in the wild is a wise choice. However, I don't think finding/observing the species in the wild should be discouraged. I think this would fall under responsible collecting. However, I think that you can make a valid argument against non-native CB animals. Where/when I grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania, virtually none of the native salamanders were available commercially. As a child I had a high proportion of escapees.

Yes, I think it is the forum's responsibility to inform people of the legal implications of their actions, but I have on occasion found threads posted by obvious children who were clearly excited and inspired by their recent discovery or curious search of a rare species. These are often aggressively attacked, which results in disillusionment with the forum. In some of these cases I've had productive private conversations about proper care or collecting of the animals. Slapping a "You're illegal" or "You're wrong" on someone, especially a young mind is an attack. A better route is "You should be aware that those animals are illegal because..." Once an individual animal has been collected it is already too late for that animal. I think it is better to educate the individual rather than scold them at this point. I believe it is better for the individual and for the caudate.

It’s an interesting anthropological study. Those with the right to collect defend it and those without oppose.

The circumstances in the US and Europe are very different. Europe has been densely populated with humans for centuries, amphibian habitats are diminished, fragmented, fragile and polluted. There’s little wilderness left – countries without mountains or moors have none. The strict laws we have are there to protect what little remains.

The US land mass is vast and in the main lightly populated. I’ve flown over the states a number of times and on clear days it’s breathtaking to see so much uninhabited or uncultivated terrain. I’m not suggesting there aren’t pressures from humans - just not enough, in general, to justify such tight legislation. I hope that day never comes. The reality is that collection in the US by hobbyists or curious kids is unlikely to have any lasting impact on healthy populations. The pioneering American spirit still lives on, played out in their right to hunt, fish, bear arms etc (yes, hunting in some forms is illegal here too). These are big cultural differences which make discussions such as this less than black and white.

I agree that the differences are interesting, but I think Europe needs to address "amphibian habitats are diminished, fragmented, fragile and polluted." more directly than personal collectors, which I think it is. The history of Europe's parks/nature and revitalizing native populations in Europe is a continuing and fascinating story. One of my favorites being, Heck cattle.

 

[marco]

Nice discussion but its still evading my original concern, I'm not trying to label or insult people but it seems like a trend within the states for some people (i.e people who just happen to come across a certain animal that they like the look of) to keep them in captivity because they can.

Theres a difference between that example and a seasoned herper (with the means and knowledge to breed the animals) who collects a small colony of caudates to put into a captive breeding program.

Putting my views aside, would it be alot better for the individuals to perhaps research the animals habitat first, replicate that in the home and then go collect specimins? at least that way they are prepared instead of unprepared (which can be determental to the animals health)

 

[Azhael]

Do i really sound that rude??? O_O

If so, i deeply apologize. I really don´t think i or anyone else intended to attack agressively anyone, specially someone who´s perhaps not well informed yet.

I agree completely that wild observation and familiaritiation with the local species should be encouraged. I don´t think anyone ever said it was bad, i myself think it´s a great thing to do. It´s a totally different discussion though.
However observating and then picking and bringing home is not as rare as one would like to think, and when it´s illegal, i think it should be clearly stated. I know of people who have collected wild animals several times without having a clue that it was illegal, because simply, no one had told them, and sadly the vast majority of people know nothing about such things. Something very eassily solved.

Again, i think trying to inform people that post about this kind of "i took a sally home" matter is usefull, and is in the best interest of the new keeper and the animals. If the way this information is delievered is sometimes seen as rude or agressive, i really hope it can be changed.

 

[pete]

Do i really sound that rude??? O_O

If so, i deeply apologize. I really don´t think i or anyone else intended to attack agressively anyone, specially someone who´s perhaps not well informed yet.

I agree completely that wild observation and familiaritiation with the local species should be encouraged. I don´t think anyone ever said it was bad, i myself think it´s a great thing to do. It´s a totally different discussion though.
However observating and then picking and bringing home is not as rare as one would like to think, and when it´s illegal, i think it should be clearly stated. I know of people who have collected wild animals several times without having a clue that it was illegal, because simply, no one had told them, and sadly the vast majority of people know nothing about such things. Something very eassily solved.

Again, i think trying to inform people that post about this kind of "i took a sally home" matter is usefull, and is in the best interest of the new keeper and the animals. If the way this information is delievered is sometimes seen as rude or agressive, i really hope it can be changed.

It is not my intent to criticize you individually (or anyone else for that matter). Personally, I enjoy reading your enthusiasm on the issue, and I do think it's a noble and worthwhile cause. However, as a whole in this community, quasi-experts should be aware that shouting down and criticizing posts directed at newcomers on this issue may not be the most productive. Everyone has to start somewhere. For the most part people here are respectful and the posts are exceptionally moderated, but on occasion and with certain species or questions it can get a bit touchy.

I think posts like "i took a sally home" are inevitable, because caudates are pretty cool, and many people know nothing about them. So you get a number of people stumbling on them and taking them home to learn more about them. Unfortunately, once we humans discover something new and novel we tend to become inquisitive hoarding zealots, which is where our opportunity lies to educate or ostracize. I think a lot of this topic falls under the topic of responsible personal collection and observation (Is the animal protected? Can it be obtained CB? Why do I want this particular animal? Can I truly provide a suitable habitat?, etc). I think the issue of WC or CB applies more to the mass commercial capture of a species for resale.

 

[pete]

Nice discussion but its still evading my original concern, I'm not trying to label or insult people but it seems like a trend within the states for some people (i.e people who just happen to come across a certain animal that they like the look of) to keep them in captivity because they can.

Theres a difference between that example and a seasoned herper (with the means and knowledge to breed the animals) who collects a small colony of caudates to put into a captive breeding program.

Putting my views aside, would it be alot better for the individuals to perhaps research the animals habitat first, replicate that in the home and then go collect specimins? at least that way they are prepared instead of unprepared (which can be determental to the animals health)

I don't think many will disagree with your hope that people would research animals before they take them. But I wouldn't wait for this to occur. People don't even do that with more traditional pets, in which society is more familiar.

As for the Dicamptodon issue, I don't know the legal status of collecting them in in CA at the moment. Not everyone has the resources to commit to a captive breeding program. I don't think re-releasing captive raised animals is a good policy since it can introduce captive-introduced pathogens into the wild population. I know that Dicamptodon aren't that easy to find, and it's unlikely that there will be a massive run on Dicamptodon. So if it's legit, I personally don't a problem with one individual taking one or two animals.

 

[Lamb]

Simply put, my advice is to release the specimin back into the area that you found it

There are issues with catch and release beyond potential introduction of parasites/etc. One that I find interesting from the scientific perspective is that herps when caught and kept for a longer period of time (say upwards of two weeks), are often killed upon release. I don't have the study on me (my computer crashed a few months ago, taking all of my PDFs with it), but it detailed how lizards collected and observed in the lab were tracked after release, and none (or very very few) survived. This happened for a few reasons, including that their original territories had been taken over and so they were just beaten up and kicked out when they were returned, thus left exposed. Another reason was that that the animals no longer knew where the good hiding spots were when the predators came around and were eaten. I'd like to find that study again, when I do I'll be sure to post it somwhere on Caudata.org. This is why, if you are collecting a specimen and are going to be taking it away from its home for more than a few hours, you need to be wary. We might feel good when we release them back into the wild...but they ultimatley don't.